Using neutron bombs on taliban safehavens

[HansMustermann]

hey lets not forget the Davy Crocket, a nulcear bazooka that couldn't fire the war head far enough so that the crew was out of the blast zone. So you had to jump in a fox hole after fireing it.

Yeah, _that's_ military intelligence for ya. But yeah that's the kind of thing I'm talking about.

 

[Sledge]

How come people keep coming up with one step solutions to complex problems?

Step 1. Nuke them.
Step 2. World peace.

It's more like the Underpants Gnomes solution, really.
Step 1. Nuke them.
Step 2. ???
Step 3. World peace!

That aside, the suggestion of nuking a country to take out an organisation that isn't constrained by national borders is so insane I don't think it needs further rebuking. I'll just drop this excerpt from Red Dwarf here and let people decide who from this thread best fits the Rimmer role.

Lister: How many survived?
Rimmer: Well, we haven't had time to make a full official estimate. But at a rough guess, and obviously this is subject to alteration pending information updates, roundabout: none of them.
Lister: So you wiped out the entire population of this planet?
Rimmer: You make it sound so negative, Lister. Don't you see? The deranged menace that once threatened this world is vanquished.
Lister: No it isn't, pal. You're still here!

 

[kbmast]

<parody>
Awesome idea guys! We nuke Mecca. Then they'll see that their god is weak and can't stop us. If they keep being Muslims instead of peaceful atheists we'll nuke another holy site until they do. It's basic Pavlovian conditioning and bound to work.
</parody>

Seriously, why is this even a discussion? In today's world nuclear weapons aren't a military option, they're only there for political reasons. Using a nuclear weapon, be it traditional or a reduced yield radiological would backfire in a major way. The blowback of a first strike use of nuclear weapons against villagers that are themselves living in terror of the Taliban because we fail to protect them could destroy our country as a superpower, would dissolve the NATO alliance and probably just about any other treaty we have, and set off a major wave of nuclear proliferation. Which, by the way, would almost almost ensure that nuclear weapons would fall into the hands of terrorists. Especially since every Muslim country will be raving mad about out total disregard for the lives of civilians in a Muslim country.

 

[gtc]

hey lets not forget the Davy Crocket, a nulcear bazooka that couldn't fire the war head far enough so that the crew was out of the blast zone. So you had to jump in a fox hole after fireing it.

Do you have a cite for this? I wasn't even aware that there had been such a small scale nuclear weapon until recently and I haven't been able to find much about them other than the wikipedia article.

 

[Doubt]

Do you have a cite for this? I wasn't even aware that there had been such a small scale nuclear weapon until recently and I haven't been able to find much about them other than the wikipedia article.

A little more info here:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/systems/w54.htm

 

[gtc]

Cheers.

 

[Arthur Denton]

Send an unmistakably clear message to the Taliban - you commit a suicide car bomb and we fry one of your safe haven valleys via drone. Just like Pavlov's dog, they'll catch on eventually. As for the civilians living under their thumbs, they have become so fearful they are enablers.

Let me get this straight.

You'll slap them. They may slap you back. If they do, rinse and repeat, till they stop.

Let's say that there are 2000 Talibanis on each safe haven. You kill 2000, let's say some are inocent. They're considered martyrs. Violence restarts.


You'll slap them. They may slap you back. If they do, rinse and repeat, till they stop.

Pavlov did the test with dogs. Dogs won't slap back, aye? No, they do. Dogs bite. But dogs, in fact, can't actually take posession of such hammers of destruction. Talibans can, eventually, get hold of some technology, say, biological warfare. And they strike back.

Again.

You'll slap them. They may slap you back. If they do, rinse and repeat, till they stop.

It will never end. Never. You'll never get the desired result cause either you eliminate the idea that they are right or you eliminate the culprits as exactly as possible. No colateral damage would be allowed. How can you prove someone is wrong in such a situation? Can you tell a Talibani from another? You can't. You're not omnipotent, nor omniscient. And you'll fail if you try.

In fact, I believe that, due to the fact that you suggest it, you'd beat your kids to teach them. You'll beat your wife to prove your point.

And I hope they retaliate.

 

[Tumbleweed]

Let me get this straight.

You'll slap them. They may slap you back. If they do, rinse and repeat, till they stop.

Let's say that there are 2000 Talibanis on each safe haven. You kill 2000, let's say some are inocent. They're considered martyrs. Violence restarts.


You'll slap them. They may slap you back. If they do, rinse and repeat, till they stop.

Pavlov did the test with dogs. Dogs won't slap back, aye? No, they do. Dogs bite. But dogs, in fact, can't actually take posession of such hammers of destruction. Talibans can, eventually, get hold of some technology, say, biological warfare. And they strike back.

Again.

You'll slap them. They may slap you back. If they do, rinse and repeat, till they stop.

It will never end. Never. You'll never get the desired result cause either you eliminate the idea that they are right or you eliminate the culprits as exactly as possible. No colateral damage would be allowed. How can you prove someone is wrong in such a situation? Can you tell a Talibani from another? You can't. You're not omnipotent, nor omniscient. And you'll fail if you try.

In fact, I believe that, due to the fact that you suggest it, you'd beat your kids to teach them. You'll beat your wife to prove your point.

And I hope they retaliate.

And your solution is to just let them set up a terrorist state? Like the general said, what we are doing ain't working so its cut and run or try something else. So what is it if not escalation, the retaking of Taliban controlled areas and keeping them safe from theocratic dark age bullies. No way else to win.

 

[Tumbleweed]

It's me Truman again or as some would prefer, Hitler. Same difference I guess to some. I see no shame in being Truman-like so I'll go with that.
Here's the modified plan. You force the population into urban controlled areas. You force civilians living in War Lord areas via sweeps to relocate to Kabul where they will be given jobs , health care, etc and have them rebuild the devastated ciites on NATO's nation rebuilding dime. Then send a message loud and clear to the War Lords that their Dark Age era is over FOR GOOD and that their former basket case piece of crap drug economy "nation" is now history. Arrest and execute any self proclaimed war lords that resist the Kabul Government in ANY way. Completely shut down the Pakistan border, have drones shoot neutrons and anything else at anything that moves on the Afghan side of the closed paths and starve the remaining war lords into unconditional surrender and an unconditional laying down of arms. No truce, just unconditional surrender. Meanwhile conduct more civilian sweeps. Let's just see if they are tougher than the Japanese were. And both Patton and MacArthur would have done the same thing with enough troops. And once emasculated, keep them under NATO's thumb until they can be good little citizens of the world instead of foaming at the mouth in an opium/heroin induced haze where sex with 72 subjucated virgins is the Ultimate Heaven to strive for. Same type of duped clowns that used to give their lives for the Japanese God Emperor, the good old Wizard of Oz type guy, until we magically straightened them out like some kind of dog whisperer with a snap of our fingers. Pavlov working again- mess with the nice guy democracy loving bull and you get the horn being the message taught
I'm betting Obama goes with escalation. I voted for him. He said it was a war of necessity. He can't risk saying no and then watching the Taliban take over just like the Viet Cong did, and create a terrorist state that endangers Americans. He'd lose for certain in 2012 with the GOP and Rush riding it for all it is worth. Escalation loses him votes on the left , but he gains them as well from middle independents and hawkish GOPers
And that's the way I see it and at 62 I could care less if you agree or not. I want my revenge for 911 and that ill advised war in Iraq just didn't cut it because the real perpetrators are still out there smirking away. Think back on how New Yorkers reacted that day. THEY wanted revenge and the bully New York hating Taliban makes a GREAT target. Let's stimulate our economy at their expense and not give them the chance to rebuild and strike again possibly with nukes.

 

[Tumbleweed]

Ever see the movie Straw Dogs with Dustin Hoffman, meek and mild mannered , he and his emasculating wife pestered to no end by bullies. And how did that last scene go when he contemplated on their untimely, grotesque, cruel demise at his hand and thereby winning back his wife's respect? With horror? with regret? Oh yeah that's right, with a smile.
You know, bullies of the world should watch that show. Maybe it would dawn on them that hell hath no fury like a bully victim when he gets his chance at revenge.

 

[Doubt]

It's me Truman again or as some would prefer, Hitler. Same difference I guess to some. I see no shame in being Truman-like so I'll go with that.
Here's the modified plan. You force the population into urban controlled areas. You force civilians living in War Lord areas via sweeps to relocate to Kabul where they will be given jobs , health care, etc and have them rebuild the devastated ciites on NATO's nation rebuilding dime.

Well, you took the crazy down a notch, but still crazy.

Something like that was tried a couple of times with some success by the British. The first was in South Africa and ended up with a lot of dead civilians in concentration camps. It did not win them the war. They tried it later in Southeast Asia with fortified villages to cut off the people from the guerrillas and it worked much better.

The US tried it in Vietnam with the strategic hamlet concept and if failed miserably. There are not enough troops on the ground for it to even have half a chance in Afghanistan.

Afghanistan is an agricultural country. Herding them into cities that are not the heart of their economy will just make building a working economy that much harder.

Then send a message loud and clear to the War Lords that their Dark Age era is over FOR GOOD and that their former basket case piece of crap drug economy "nation" is now history. Arrest and execute any self proclaimed war lords that resist the Kabul Government in ANY way.

We cannot teach a country to stop acting like gangsters by acting like gangsters.

Completely shut down the Pakistan border, have drones shoot neutrons and anything else at anything that moves on the Afghan side of the closed paths and starve the remaining war lords into unconditional surrender and an unconditional laying down of arms. No truce, just unconditional surrender. Meanwhile conduct more civilian sweeps. Let's just see if they are tougher than the Japanese were.

The only thing that can shut down that border is winter. Keep in mind the US cannot even come up with a way to shut down the border with Mexico. Also you may remember some little trail network in Southeast Asia that we also failed to shut down despite massive bombing, raids and electronic sensors

And both Patton and MacArthur would have done the same thing with enough troops. And once emasculated, keep them under NATO's thumb until they can be good little citizens of the world instead of foaming at the mouth in an opium/heroin induced haze where sex with 72 subjucated virgins is the Ultimate Heaven to strive for.

As already pointed out, you don't know anything about what generals think. And last I knew, the Taliban and most of the extremists in that part of the world don't use drugs.

Revenge does not equal victory. There is no quick answer. And even if total victory is achievable, it is not going to look like WWII. You would be better off checking out successful counter insurgency efforts. Most of them took a long time and there was not a lot of glory.

 

[Doubt]

One thing I would like to see in Afghanistan is a major road building campaign.

Why roads?

Well, they are both a military and an economic asset. More roads means more mobility for the Afghan security forces. More mobility means you can do more with fewer troops.

More roads means farmers can move crops easier which makes it easier to transport bulky grain products. If the farmers can turn a profit selling crops in the open economy their will be less incentive to grow poppies and sell the products on the black market and end up financing the enemy.

Those roads are going to need serious defending, which is a major problem. A solution for that is, if possible, is to pay the locals to watch the roads. If you can keep them honest. But then you still have roadside bombs getting planted at night. But it may make for a predictable focal point for future battles.

If it were possible I would like to see some serious efforts to take on the Taliban in the winter. The boarder is closed then and the Taliban's ability to move is limited. Helicopters can lift more in cold air improving some aspects of US mobility. And then there is this old tool used by the Finns called skis. Some of the terrain is suitable for alpine operations. why not use them?

 

[Dancing David]

Did they speak for the Japanese government?



Evidence?



Speculation.


Evidence that the US accepted any offer from a genuine Japanese authority?

It will take a while, I stopped reading about WWII in 1990, after a six year obsession.

I should have said that the terms of the surreneder were the ones tendered by the japanese.

 

[Dancing David]

It's me Truman again or as some would prefer, Hitler. Same difference I guess to some. I see no shame in being Truman-like so I'll go with that.
Here's the modified plan. You force the population into urban controlled areas.

Ah, nothing like a freedom loving american with a plan...

You force civilians living in War Lord areas via sweeps to relocate to Kabul where they will be given jobs , health care, etc and have them rebuild the devastated ciites on NATO's nation rebuilding dime.

It will take more than a dime and what? Allies are not slaves, NATO is not a slave, really now?

You and GWB, just can't make a coalition work.

i suppose you plan for the US to pay for all this?

Then send a message loud and clear to the War Lords that their Dark Age era is over FOR GOOD

Ah, I see, a new dark Ages has descended to replace the old dardk ages....whatever.

and that their former basket case piece of crap drug economy "nation" is now history.

mote, eye, Dust, eye.

Arrest and execute any self proclaimed war lords that resist the Kabul Government in ANY way.

Ah, you gotta love democracy in action, concentration camps, pogroms, ah nothing like the smell of reedom.

Completely shut down the Pakistan border, have drones shoot neutrons and anything else at anything that moves on the Afghan side of the closed paths and starve the remaining war lords into unconditional surrender and an unconditional laying down of arms. No truce, just unconditional surrender. Meanwhile conduct more civilian sweeps.

you mean of the concentration camps? Or have you forgotten what you said in earlier sentences.

Let's just see if they are tougher than the Japanese were. And both Patton and MacArthur would have done the same thing with enough troops.

And Patton would have had his ass handed to him on a platter.

You may be 62, but you don't know squat about history.

And once emasculated, keep them under NATO's thumb until they can be good little citizens of the world instead of foaming at the mouth in an opium/heroin induced haze where sex with 72 subjucated virgins is the Ultimate Heaven to strive for. Same type of duped clowns that used to give their lives for the Japanese God Emperor, the good old Wizard of Oz type guy, until we magically straightened them out like some kind of dog whisperer with a snap of our fingers. Pavlov working again- mess with the nice guy democracy loving bull and you get the horn being the message taught
I'm betting Obama goes with escalation. I voted for him. He said it was a war of necessity. He can't risk saying no and then watching the Taliban take over just like the Viet Cong did, and create a terrorist state that endangers Americans. He'd lose for certain in 2012 with the GOP and Rush riding it for all it is worth. Escalation loses him votes on the left , but he gains them as well from middle independents and hawkish GOPers

And now with psychic powers...

And that's the way I see it and at 62 I could care less if you agree or not. I want my revenge for 911 and that ill advised war in Iraq just didn't cut it because the real perpetrators are still out there smirking away. Think back on how New Yorkers reacted that day. THEY wanted revenge and the bully New York hating Taliban makes a GREAT target. Let's stimulate our economy at their expense and not give them the chance to rebuild and strike again possibly with nukes.

Oh my the penguin on the telly just exploded...

 

[Corsair 115]

Truman dropped the bomb to scare the Reds, he did not do it to subjugate japan. japan had made repeated offers to the surrender we agreed to anyway.

Uh, the reality is just a wee bit more complicated than that. Deserves its own thread however lest this one get too sidetracked.

Keep in mind the US cannot even come up with a way to shut down the border with Mexico.

Well, it could if it really wanted to. Turn the U.S.-Mexico border into the equivalent of the Berlin Wall and enforce it with the same ruthlessness and you'll pretty much close the border off.

For various economic and political reasons, of course, such an approach is not at all feasible.

 

[HansMustermann]

Ever see the movie Straw Dogs with Dustin Hoffman, meek and mild mannered , he and his emasculating wife pestered to no end by bullies. And how did that last scene go when he contemplated on their untimely, grotesque, cruel demise at his hand and thereby winning back his wife's respect? With horror? with regret? Oh yeah that's right, with a smile.
You know, bullies of the world should watch that show. Maybe it would dawn on them that hell hath no fury like a bully victim when he gets his chance at revenge.

Except that's the problem: you approach the problem from the entirely wrong angle. You approach it from the angle of being Teh Tuff Guy who's like this or that movie hero, not from the helping-the-Afghans angle which you otherwise use as an excuse.

Because if it's about helping the Afghans with a problem, then you have to ask if your solution is worse than the problem. And if your solution is even worse, then the honest thing to do -- if you actually want to _help_, not just do the redneck willy-waving thing with nukes -- is to not do it.

It's why you don't get antivirals for the common cold, nor chemotherapy for warts. Because if it's more damaging to treat that cold than to let you keep it, the honest and correct thing to do is to let you keep it.

If in that movie the hero dreamt about blowing up his wife too, to save her from the bullies, then he'd be simply put an idiot.

And yeah, the comparison to such "winning the girl" fantasies illustrates exactly why I call it a dick-size fantasy.

 

[Dancing David]

Uh, the reality is just a wee bit more complicated than that. Deserves its own thread however lest this one get too sidetracked.





.

It sure is a bit more complcated than that!

I dropped out of the last thread on it, it was awesome.

 

[shemp]

I think that, at this point in the discussion (or what remains of it), it's important to present the view of two experts on the use of nuclear weapons:

 

[INRM]

Fuel-air explosives are a much better choice. A lot of destruction and no radiation. Thermobaric bombs are effective in blasting their way into caves and stuff.

You could use either manned or unmanned aircraft for their delivery. UCAV's would probably be used, but either would work.

 

[richardm]

You know, bullies of the world should watch that show. Maybe it would dawn on them that hell hath no fury like a bully victim when he gets his chance at revenge.

People who want to use Neutron bombs on a whole country to teach extremists a lesson want to watch what they're advocating.