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USA's government, not people, make it great

A wise Republican once described our system as "government of the people, by the people, for the people." Romney is spouting a modern Republican lie that our government is some entity disconnected from and in opposition to the people. This pervasive lie is becoming self-actualizing, as people start to feel that they are subject to government, and not the other way around. Perpetuating this lie is irresponsible and dangerous to our liberty.
 
I don't see that we are any more kind, hard-working, intelligent, or creative than people elsewhere.

The strength of this nation comes from the form of government we enjoy -- despite its flaws and frequent excesses.

Let me suggest an alternative reading for Romney's comments: people are just people, our government is what distinguishes us, but it's the fact that our government is less involved in people's lives than most governments which allows the people to do more and accomplish more than other countries. In this reading, it's still the people who make our country great, not government, even if it is differences in government and not people which distinguishes us from other countries.

Now, you may or may not agree with that evaluation, but I think it's a lot closer to what Romney probably meant than what you're implying.
 
I don't understand why we don't hear ANYTHING about it from 95% of the politicians and media. The Bush administration has claimed that the presidency is completely above the law, and no one seems all that concerned... probably BECAUSE OF the media, and their idiot profit-driven non-journalism. They would rather talk about anything besides a real issue, for fear of losing a single viewer. I mean, really, they treat the American people like a bunch of easily distracted non-thinkers... non-think... Britney did what?!?!

I...ummm... I gotta go! :cool:

That evil profit driven media.It would be so much better if the State took it over and ran it on a non profit basis for the benefit of The People.
 
The seperation between office holder and office never did exist. If you could actually do that they'd just have instituted the American Constitution in Iraq an declared mission accomplished, and it would have been true. Unfortunatly the real world is a great deal more complicated than that.

As for the political culture turning, political cultures can be extremely robust. If you really though that the institutions alone was what mattered, then how do you account for succesfull democracies sich as Denmark or the UK that don't have similar institutional safeguards as the US? I'm not denying that institutions matter, just that they're all that matters.

I think you need to read my post just a little more closely.

I have not said that the separation is absolute, or even always observed, or that the institutions alone are what matter.

Thanks.
 
Piggy, the anarchists you posit are plutocrats, or oligarchs, depending upon how you want to apply those two terms. They need structure, but their aim is to dictate the structure on their terms, which an anarchist will not, by principle.

I'm not so sure.

I don't know what the political landscape is like where you are.

Where I am, there's a rising tide of late -- mostly among small-town businessmen, hinterland politicos, blue-collar talk radio fans, and such -- who have bought into the simplistic notion that government is inherently bad and that the "free market" always (always!) provides a better solution.

But yeah, I'm using the term "anarchist" very loosely here, perhaps to the point of metaphor.
 
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You have to consider the source too, Piggy..
This is the same Mitt Romney who said he wanted to unite the republican party but has still not endorsed McCain.

To be fair to Mr. Romney, I have to say that his comments were the catalyst that got me thinking.

My interest in the topic stems more from the growing chorus I hear from other quarters.

But it sure makes a great applause line, doesn't it?!

And the more it's repeated by presidential candidates, talk radio pundits, and the like, the more legitimate it appears to those who would adhere to it.
 
The People, in crafting a constition that creates this wonderful government, gave it limited powers, and none others, reserving all freedoms to themselves.

This allows the country to be great because the people, living their lives and pursuing their goals freely, make it great. So the premise of this thread is right and wrong at the same time.

Ziggurat said:
Let me suggest an alternative reading for Romney's comments: people are just people, our government is what distinguishes us, but it's the fact that our government is less involved in people's lives than most governments which allows the people to do more and accomplish more than other countries. In this reading, it's still the people who make our country great, not government, even if it is differences in government and not people which distinguishes us from other countries.

Now, you may or may not agree with that evaluation, but I think it's a lot closer to what Romney probably meant than what you're implying.

Well said.
 
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Interesting. More so than Harding, FDR or Nixon?

FDR?

The man who led us out of the Great Depression and to victory in WWII while battling polio?

The man who appears on just about every historians' list of Greatest Presidents?

That FDR?
 
The People, in crafting a constition that creates this wonderful government, gave it limited powers, and none others, reserving all freedoms to themselves.

This allows the country to be great because the people, living their lives and pursuing their goals freely, make it great. So the premise of this thread is right and wrong at the same time.
I.E., the People got the one Big Thing right, so they can get a lot of little things wrong.

I can grok that. We'll see how well that holds up after Obama's elected.
 
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A wise Republican once described our system as "government of the people, by the people, for the people." Romney is spouting a modern Republican lie that our government is some entity disconnected from and in opposition to the people. This pervasive lie is becoming self-actualizing, as people start to feel that they are subject to government, and not the other way around. Perpetuating this lie is irresponsible and dangerous to our liberty.

High taxes, land taken, welfare, socialized school system and others items do make people feel that we have an intrusive gov't. With the threat of socialized medicine with the next liberal nominee, government interference may reach a new high and liberty may be dying.
 
That evil profit driven media.It would be so much better if the State took it over and ran it on a non profit basis for the benefit of The People.

I think liberals want the gov't to take over everything they disagree with.
 
You are so wrong about the gov't being great and not the people.

America is a great country partly because of the people, but more so because God has blessed this nation.

Our Constitution, the greatest document every written, was divinely inspired. But, people have kept the spirit of it alive despite the attempts of liberals and socialists to define America in their warped terms.

Americans love their country more than others in the world and they will fight to the death to defend it.

Patriotism, love of country, love of God is what has sustained this country through it's darkest times, but these things will inevitably free it from the chains of ignorance and arrogance of those who destroy us.
 
If I could ask the candidates one question, it would be, "Do you pledge to roll back the excessive and unconstitutional powers which Bush has usurped from the other branches?"


If only we could pick and choose which Federal government excesses to keep or throw out. If it were a straight choice, I'd keep the stuff that impedes terrorists and throw away the junk that keeps us poor and indebted such as the Social Security ponzi scam.
 
You cannot separate the Constitution from the populace, the political culture. People are naive to think that some document alone, in itself, can prevent tyranny. This is the kind of hokum libertarians often spout when it comes to their rigid separation of Free Market and government. What matters is that the Constitution lives in the hearts and minds of people, and appeal to that document carries a lot of weight.
Fred: "Well, The Constitution says blah blah blah blah blah."
Jimbo: "OK, you win."

It works in the United States because people are indoctrinated from an early age to believe that the Founding Fathers had some grand over-arching vision for society. Never mind 21 out of the 55 delegates favored some form of monarchy, or the obvious compromises built into the Constitution (3/5, no export taxes, slave trade ends in 1808, the structure of the bicameral legislature).

The Constitution can be viewed as a paternalistic document when we look at, say, the qualifications for running for elected office. Do you distrust people to elect someone under the age of 35 to the Presidency? Can we not trust the people to elect someone who was born in another country? The Father-knows-best elitist-guardian mentality can especially be seen in the Electoral College and the election of Senators (until the 17th Amendment). (See Madison's argument in _The Federalist Papers #51_.)

Republicans are interesting characters in that they rail against government, but they basically buy into the notion that government should not be questioned. Well, government should not be questioned when it's spying us, prosecuting wars, conducting secret, illegal wars, and so on, but when we're talking about providing health insurance to sick children -- oh dear Lord, "New Ager" is gonna have a conniption fit. My goodness, the threat to liberty is grave indeed. Let's put on our whiny voices: "think about the children."

Jefferson wanted lots of Constitutional conventions and did not **** himself over Shays' rebellion ("The tree of liberty must be refreshed with the blood of patriots and tyrants from time to time," revolution every 25 years, etc). Madison's counter-argument is succinctly stated in Federalist #49:

every appeal to the people would carry an implication of some defect in the government, frequent appeals would, in a great measure, deprive the government of that veneration which time bestows on every thing, and without which perhaps the wisest and freest governments would not possess the requisite stability.

This is because common people are vulnerable to their passions (or "appetites" as Plato argued). In Federalist 51 Madison famously says, "If men were angels, no government would be necessary." But of course something like three-quarters of Americans believe in Angels, so #49:

The reason of man, like man himself, is timid and cautious when left alone, and acquires firmness and confidence in proportion to the number with which it is associated. When the examples which fortify opinion are ancient as well as numerous, they are known to have a double effect. In a nation of philosophers, this consideration ought to be disregarded. A reverence for the laws would be sufficiently inculcated by the voice of an enlightened reason. But a nation of philosophers is as little to be expected as the philosophical race of kings wished for by Plato. And in every other nation, the most rational government will not find it a superfluous advantage to have the prejudices of the community on its side.
 
High taxes, land taken, welfare, socialized school system and others items do make people feel that we have an intrusive gov't. With the threat of socialized medicine with the next liberal nominee, government interference may reach a new high and liberty may be dying.

Except that our taxes are low, private schools are allowed, no candidate has proposed socialized medicine, and the only one proposing a single-payer health system has dropped out.

The real intrusion is coming from the gov't's attempt to assert a right to secretly monitor our emails, phone calls, etc. without any oversight whatsoever.

Agreed on the abuse of eminent domain.
 
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You are so wrong about the gov't being great and not the people.

America is a great country partly because of the people, but more so because God has blessed this nation.

Our Constitution, the greatest document every written, was divinely inspired. But, people have kept the spirit of it alive despite the attempts of liberals and socialists to define America in their warped terms.

Americans love their country more than others in the world and they will fight to the death to defend it.

Patriotism, love of country, love of God is what has sustained this country through it's darkest times, but these things will inevitably free it from the chains of ignorance and arrogance of those who destroy us.

Is this a joke, or do you really believe that?

I mean, that bit about Americans loving their country more than anyone else, what basis could anyone have for making a statement like that? A: None.
 
What matters is that the Constitution lives in the hearts and minds of people, and appeal to that document carries a lot of weight.

Indeed. The old adage is 100% correct -- the Constitution cannot defend itself. It also cannot enforce itself. We must defend it, we must enforce it.

I just wish more people these days actually knew what was in it. :mad:
 

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