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Usan special forces killed Linda Norgrove?

This kind of thing seems to happen to you a lot:

All of it true as it happens. But I would prefer if we concentrated rather on this latest victim of the military culture of deceit and bombast rather than my own fascinating person.

My only point was that any one who thinks ham-fisted rescues and deceitful spin is an American only problem is greatly mistaken.
 
I had never heard this version of the story about downing the Iranian air liner. I decided to check one little detail that looks wrong on it's face. Most modern warships carry at least a little bit of anti-aircraft weaponry. Those that don't are pretty worthless in battle. The HMS York is armed with a sea dart missile system. See the Royal Navy for documentation here:

http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/operati...ing-department/weapons-engineering-department

So do you have anything that backs up your account? How much of the rest of it is likely to be wrong?


Excuse me for not going into technical detail when posting very late at night.

I work beside someone who was serving on the York at the time. His first reaction when I raised the subject of Iran Air 655 during a conversation about the Lockerbie bombing was "We got the blame for that!" I said, "Er, what do you mean?" not even having realised the York was in the area at the time, or even connecting the photo (on his 40th birthday invitations) of him in an HMS York naval uniform with his comment.

I then got the whole story. Indeed, you're right about the York's armament capability, Calum actually said, "We didn't even have any anti-aircraft capability that would have been able to hit a plane at that altitude." He did mention the Sea Darts. Sorry for not getting technical enough.

There was a TV documentary crew on board the Vincennes at the time of the incident, and the footage has been widely broadcast. One sequence shows the shot being fired, and the jubilant crew acknowledging their "kill". The second shows the same crew slumped over their consoles in distress as the realisation sinks in that they have shot down a passenger plane full of innocent civilians.

Calum tells me there was only about ten to fifteen minutes between these two shots. However, in that time, the Vincennes was absolutely adamant that they had shot down an attacking Iranian fighter jet, and that if anyone had brought down a passenger plane it must have been the York. This got out to the media, to the point where Calum's mother heard on the radio that her son's ship had shot down a civilian airliner.

Calum says that the Vincennes and its sister ship then sailed away from the scene, and he spent the next two weeks, with his shipmates, fishing body parts out of the Persian Gulf. It's not a pretty story - he said they were reduced to pairing legs by looking for matching shoes.

The rest of the story is public knowledge. The gung-ho attitude of the captain of the Vincennes, shoot first and ask questions afterwards - to the point where other US captains had expressed concerns about him. Yes, the shooting was a tragic accident, but in the light of that guy's behaviour, it was an accident waiting to happen.

Then, on his return to the USA he got the proverbial hero's welcome, and a medal. Reagan was president at the time, but I think it was Bush snr. who refused to apologise or accept responsibility for the tragedy, or admit that the Vincennes was violating Iranian territorial waters at the time.

This isn't forgotten, particularly as it is widely believed in Britain that the Lockerbie disaster was actually Iranian revenge for IR655.

I say this just to clarify the background to the reporting of these current events. My initial reaction to Linda's death was that it was a tragedy, but no doubt the US forces had done the best they could in a very difficult situation, and we should be grateful to them for trying. However, as more emerges, doubts start to creep in.

I hope these doubts will be laid to rest in due course. However, it's all very difficult at the moment, with Linda's parents in a state of complete prostration, and conflicting stories flying around all over the place.

Rolfe.
 
The Vincennes business reminded me (I was in the Gulf at the time) of the movie "The Bedford Incident", starring Richard Widmark, Sidney Poitier and Gary Cockerell. Damn good movie.

It's true that American forces have a reputation in the UK for being trigger happy.
I dare say there's some truth in it. I recall my father telling me that in Italy during WWII, when the Luftwaffe showed up , the allies took cover; when the RAF showed up, the Germans took cover and when the US Air Force showed up, everybody took cover, so this is no recent phenomenon. But that was a largely conscript war. In Afghanistan we have a "professional" army.

I've read that the US Army in WWII fired 10,000 rounds for each man killed. This may be exaggerated, but from the military histories I've read there seems to be a view among US forces that it's better to expend a great deal of materiel if it saves the life of a single grunt.

I happily approve this philosophy.

The desire for accurate, targeted rifle fire which was a feature of British training until the first world war died in the artillery hell of the western front. In the "restricted" wars of the last twenty years, there is an evident return to that attitude on both sides of the pond.

There unquestionably is an element of reporting bias in the British perception. American troops provide far and away the majority of allied troops in Iraq and Afghanistan. If friendly fire causes deaths uniformly, we must expect Americans to cause most of them. Presumably figures are available to show if the FF rate associated with US troops is higher, lower or equal once correction is made for total numbers of troops.

What does seem puzzling in this incident is the apparent certainty at the start that the cause of death was an insurgent bomb. It also seems odd to me that grenades would be issued for a night hostage rescue operation. They would not seem like the obvious weapon of choice.

On the other hand, it would seem to have been very easy for the Americans to just cover this one up. That they have not done so is laudable.

They tried to rescue the hostages. If trying was unwise, it was not the fault of the soldiers who tried, but the error of those giving the order.
 
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Give an American a grenade and he'll throw it. It's their culture.

You're out of date. That may have been true when we were out to save the world.

The more accurate standard: "Give an American a grenade and he'll eat it..."
 

Not so there are a number of political philosophies that would allow it.

Ones that call for a very high degree of nations minding their own business for example

Another might be accepting one of the more popular pashtun moral codes.
 
Wow. That was stupid.

ETA: The amount of detailed knowledge given, considering the unit involved, is very unusual.
 
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What does seem puzzling in this incident is the apparent certainty at the start that the cause of death was an insurgent bomb.

I don't know a great deal about the effects different types of explosive device might have when detonated, but I can imagine if there's a lot of devastation it may not be immediately clear what type of bomb/grenade/IED was the cause.
 
Radio report this morning said Linda (who is actually "Dr. Norgrove" despite all this "Ms" stuff) had managed to slip away from her captors and was then killed by the US granade. Utterly tragic, if true.

There was also a radio interview a few days ago, of which a short excerpt was televised, with another woman aid worker who had been held hostage for a few days. She said a lot of hard things about praying she would not be "rescued" by US forces because of their reputation for going in boots first. I have tried to find a report of that interview online, but so far to no avail.

Rolfe.
 
She was killed by an explosion. Explosions take no sides.
If you want information about the location and activity of SAS units in Afghanistan, I suggest you contact the Ministry of Defence. Don't hold your breath.

She was killed by Usan Special forces apparently. Who but a nutter throws fragmentation grenades into the area where the person you were supposedly trying to rescue is located?

I don't want anyone 'rescued' by such idiots.
 
Tragic incident, sounds like the call to make the attempt was the right call despite her being killed. Rock and a hard place.

If only that were true. Unfortunately It looks less and less like a tragic accident and more one of gross misconduct. The initial fantasy details seem to be a common thread now with the US military.

I doubt David Cameron will be so quick to take the word of the US military in future unless there is some corroboration. Remember the spectacular misinformation over WMD in Iraq when Colin Powell made such an utter ass of himself in the UN.

Fortunately it seems that someone in the US military was not prepared to accept the initial misinformation. Good for him.
 

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