US Officials Declare Eastern Cougar Extinct

William Parcher said:
I'm a bit confused with this news. The USFWS already declared the Eastern Cougar extinct back in 2011 (the start of this thread). Now we have a news story saying they just declared it extinct this week.
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That confused me too. Searching the USFWS web site it turns out that the process for removing an animal from the endangered species list is a long complicated procedure that still hasn't been finalized. The final proposal has only recently been published and there is still a 60 day review & comment period before it can become a final decision after August 17th.

More details @ http://www.fws.gov/northeast/ecougar/
 
If they declare it extinct,
And they remove it from the list,
Am I in the clear if I shoot one?
 
LTC8K6 said:
You're in the clear if you shoot an adult.

Any jury would believe you were in fear of your life.

Just don't mention that the beast was throwing candy at you.
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"It's extinct."
"No it's not. In fact, here's the body of one I shot last week."
"Well, it's extinct now."

It does seem a bit more rational to go out hunting something that's been declared extinct over something mythical, like bigfoot. You get the benefits of spending time in the woods with guns, not shooting anything, and no one flat out calls you crazy.
 
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I just read that in my local paper! At least, about the Mt. Lion. (Not the cougar. I think they are two different variations?) Regardless, funny thing is, my sister says she knows someone who got a picture of a mountain lion last month. (I noted that it was "last month," and that it is hearsay. I would have to see the picture.)

Even if the animal is not extinct, the population is so low, that it is unsustainable. It WILL be extinct, and nothing anyone can do about it.
 
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Well, if it's off the endangered species list and there are still some around, I would imagine there is still no 'open season' for them in any state in their potential range, so you better be shooting it because it's attacking you because otherwise it would be considered poaching.
 
Nihilianth said:
I just read that in my local paper! At least, about the Mt. Lion. (Not the cougar. I think they are two different variations?) Regardless, funny thing is, my sister says she knows someone who got a picture of a mountain lion last month. (I noted that it was "last month," and that it is hearsay. I would have to see the picture.)
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Mountain lion and cougar are different names for the same species. This thread is about an extinct subspecies called Eastern Cougar.


Even if the animal is not extinct, the population is so low, that it is unsustainable. It WILL be extinct, and nothing anyone can do about it.
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You are describing what is known as functional extinction. The USFWS has not found evidence for functional extinction, but instead has evidence for extinction itself.


Arisia said:
Well, if it's off the endangered species list and there are still some around...
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The Eastern Cougar subspecies is extinct and so there aren't any around. That's the whole point about the agency declaring the subspecies to be extinct.

Many millions of people (the citizenry) have had many decades to show that the Eastern Cougar still exists. That has not happened. That matters. It matters a whole lot.

Absence of evidence is evidence of absence.
 
marplots said:
"It's extinct."
"No it's not. In fact, here's the body of one I shot last week."
"Well, it's extinct now."

It does seem a bit more rational to go out hunting something that's been declared extinct over something mythical, like bigfoot. You get the benefits of spending time in the woods with guns, not shooting anything, and no one flat out calls you crazy.
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I was reminded of the scene in Addams Family Values.
Wednesday shoots an arrow into the air and a dead eagle plummets to the ground.
"It's a bald eagle!"
"Aren't they extinct?"
"They are now."

Of course, that ignores the fact that, not only are they not extinct, they were moved from Endangered to Threatened two years after the movie was made, and weren't even classified as Threatened twelve years after that.
 
For newcomers, just to make this super-clear:

1) Cougar, mountain lion, puma and maybe half a dozen other names all refer to the same species of usually light brown big cat in the Western Hemisphere with a long tail and a hankering for deer.

2) People who study mammals for a living generally recognize three populations of cougars in North America that they consider to be SUBspecies.

3) The three subspecies are "western", "eastern", and the "Florida panther".

4) The three subspecies are managed as different populations by the US Fish and Wildlife Service under the Endangered Species Act. Florida Panther is endangered and the Western Cougar is common. The Eastern Cougar has not been proven to exist since at least the late 19th Century.

5) Given that the Eastern Cougar has not been proven to exist in 100+ years, the USFWS would like to remove it from the Endangered Species list and declare it officially, extinct.

6) Despite thousands of claims of cougars in the eastern US - within the former range of the Eastern Cougar - only a tiny handful have been confirmed as actual cougars. This means that earnest, honest people have been reporting (in some cases even photographing) cougars that weren't actually there.

7) Of the live cougars that have been confirmed, not one has been a real Eastern Cougar. The individuals have been confirmed as coming from South America through the pet trade or they are dispersing young cats from the population of Western Cougars .
 
The Shrike said:
6) Despite thousands of claims of cougars in the eastern US - within the former range of the Eastern Cougar - only a tiny handful have been confirmed as actual cougars. This means that earnest, honest people have been reporting (in some cases even photographing) cougars that weren't actually there.
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Eastern Cougar hoaxing is also in play. It has occurred before, occurs now, and will occur again in the future.

7) Of the live cougars that have been confirmed, not one has been a real Eastern Cougar. The individuals have been confirmed as coming from South America through the pet trade or they are dispersing young cats from the population of Western Cougars.
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These dispersing young cougars are males. A person could make money by betting on the gender of Western cougars that are found in the East. Always bet on male and always bet the house limit.



Here is the lastest Eastern Cougar scam being posted by Daily Mail.

Less than 24 hours ago Tom Mabe posted this comment on his YouTube channel...

Hey gang! thanks for watching, wow! I'm reading a lot of news stories that this was at my house in Kentucky.. No, shot while visiting friends who live right outside of Boulder.. Thanks again!
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There are now dozens and dozens of news sites with this cougar vs. housecat staredown video story. All are saying it's in Kentucky.

You can actually see mountains and "western" type pine trees as the video comes to an end.
 
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William Parcher said:
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The Eastern Cougar subspecies is extinct and so there aren't any around. That's the whole point about the agency declaring the subspecies to be extinct.

Many millions of people (the citizenry) have had many decades to show that the Eastern Cougar still exists. That has not happened. That matters. It matters a whole lot.

Absence of evidence is evidence of absence.
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Oh, I quite agree, the Eastern subspecies is extinct. I was just explaining that shooting something that's not on the endangered list is still poaching if it's not 'in season' unless you're defending yourself.
I would love for the catamount to be back in breeding numbers in New England (even if it has to be Western males wandering east, with young females intentionally reintroduced), I'm a Vermonter who went to UVM, after all.
 
For a very long time people throughout the East have been claiming to see black cougars. Many of these people are highly specific and go on to say that it wasn't a black leopard or jaguar but was indeed a black cougar. But cougars have never been confirmed to show melanistic coloration (black).

Karl Shuker is a cryptozoologist who wrote an essay on black cougars (he uses the name Puma). He makes a claim of existence by showing and describing an old photo from Costa Rica.


ShukerNature said:
As for pictorial evidence, only one clear, unequivocal photograph of a black puma is known. Reproduced below, this photo depicts a dead specimen shot in 1959 by Miguel Ruiz Herrero in the province of Guanacaste along Costa Rica's north Pacific coast. Estimated to weigh 100-120 lb, its carcase is seen here alongside Ruiz's herdsman, but what happened to it afterwards is unknown.
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Ruiz%2527s%2Bblack%2Bpuma.jpg


But it's a black-and-white photograph. A very dark brown/rust/russet cougar is possibly going to look "black" in a black-and-white photo. The cougar is hanging from a tree which appears to have black leaves. Is that an unusual color for leaves and could it be a new species of tree?

What does the term unequivocal mean?

I have other questions. The shadow of the man on the ground... is that only his shadow, or is it the shadow of the man and cougar blending together? Is this a forced perspective photo where he is actually standing far behind the hanging cougar? But it appears as if his right hand might be slightly in front of the cougar's paw. What about that line from the cougar's back to its shoulder to its neck nape and to its head? Is that line too straight, or is it an illusion?
 
Arisia said:
I would love for the catamount to be back in breeding numbers in New England (even if it has to be Western males wandering east, with young females intentionally reintroduced)
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I agree, but it would be an incomplete (or bad) plan if you just transplanted females into New England and then waited for wandering males to eventually get to the females which generally don't wander like the males do. Wouldn't a better plan be to transplant both genders at the same time?
 
So unequivocal or one of the most equivocal photos of all time?

So that's a 100-lb cat, and maybe a 120-lb one? It looks pretty small next to a 1950s-Costa Rican "herdsman". Not to stereotype too badly, but I'd expect a local guy from Guanacaste in 1959 to barely tip the scales above about 130, and the cat looks much smaller than our handsome Latin herdsman.

I'm not even convinced it's a cougar. Maybe it's a forced-perspective jaguarundi? I can't see the face well enough to tell for sure, and hanging upside down like that the unusual proportions of a jaguarundi might not be obvious.
 
Arisia said:
Oh, I quite agree, the Eastern subspecies is extinct. I was just explaining that shooting something that's not on the endangered list is still poaching if it's not 'in season' unless you're defending yourself.
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That seems like an odd way to write the law - inclusive rather than exclusive. I haven't hunted in years, but I seem to remember it the other way around, that you could shoot, ad lib, stuff that wasn't specifically regulated. So, for example, I could shoot field mice or rats if I had an interest in that, without restriction.

There were rules about being in the woods, armed, at all without a hunting license for a game species in season, but while you were there, you could shoot other, non-regulated stuff.

I'm willing to accept I had it wrong, or that Michigan DNR does things differently, but that's how I remember it.

An example from Michigan is feral swine:
"Can I shoot feral swine on private property?
If you are the landowner or have permission of the landowner, you may shoot feral swine on private property at any time. It is not necessary to possess a hunting license or CPL to kill feral swine on private land."

They mention that if you are in the woods hunting legally (for anything at all), you can shoot a feral swine legally. There is no hunting season.
http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-153-10370_12145_55230-230093--,00.html

In any case, I'm going to go with the idea that you can legally shoot an extinct animal. Or a space alien. Or bigfoot.
 
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