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Universal Income.

Yes, Newstart is not even remotely sufficient to keep someone off the poverty line.

And for those who are asking how to pay for it? Apart from the complete elimination of all other forms of social welfare, it could be paid for just by closing corporate tax loopholes and taxing churches. Add in a slight tax rise for the mega-wealthy and a reduction in defence spending, and you will have more than enough revenue to eliminate poverty for every human being in the country, and several others that might not have the luxury of mega-wealthy citizens or high defence budgets.

And what chance does this have of being implemented? The major parties won’t touch it, and I think even the Greens will not have it on my platform. They may, but remember their base is the relatively affluent inner urbanites, and tax rises will be unpalatable.

Apart from some Nordic countries I can’t see this happening.
 
With a UBI, you could undergo that training and not starve while you did so. Your unskilled work would pay for your training while your UBI paid for your food and shelter. Then when you have completed your training you are eligible for a higher-paying job. When none of that higher pay is required for you to not starve to death, you start circulating your wealth, feeding the economy. And if you suddenly lose your job, you can still be reassured that your Basic will continue to arrive, keeping you and your family out of poverty, permanently.

This is the thing about UBI. The Welsh Jeff Bezos will not even notice the miniscule addition to his income. It's a drop in a vast ocean. However, for the struggling small family it will make all the difference in the world. It'll keep them off the poverty line. It'll mean that they won't have to wonder where their next meal is coming from.

Rich people hoard wealth. Poor people circulate it. I don't have a citation for it, but I read an article somewhere that claimed that every $1 spent on UBI generated an additional $1.50 into the economy. Something like that anyway.

UBI doesn't just make social sense. It doesn't just make humanitarian sense. It makes economic sense.

Very good post. I am sure there are many uneducated adults who have the ability to get some form of qualification. They will then get it supported by the UBI. It may not be much, but almost any qualification would be an improvement. Then, long term, the GDP will grow due to the UBI.


Below are some interesting stats. I downloaded the spreadsheets. If you have one or, even better, two non-school qualifications this would give you a greater income and less chance of being unemployed. A third non-school qualification decreases your employment income.

https://www.abs.gov.au/statistics/people/education/qualifications-and-work/2018-19

Lionking's claims are not only vague and unsourced but wrong and these stats show this.
 
Very good post. I am sure there are many uneducated adults who have the ability to get some form of qualification. They will then get it supported by the UBI. It may not be much, but almost any qualification would be an improvement. Then, long term, the GDP will grow due to the UBI.


Below are some interesting stats. I downloaded the spreadsheets. If you have one or, even better, two non-school qualifications this would give you a greater income and less chance of being unemployed. A third non-school qualification decreases your employment income.

https://www.abs.gov.au/statistics/people/education/qualifications-and-work/2018-19

Lionking's claims are not only vague and unsourced but wrong and these stats show this.

Utter crap. I’ve posted skill shortage occupations.

Now what chance does this have of being implemented?
 
Very good post. I am sure there are many uneducated adults who have the ability to get some form of qualification. They will then get it supported by the UBI. It may not be much, but almost any qualification would be an improvement. Then, long term, the GDP will grow due to the UBI.


Below are some interesting stats. I downloaded the spreadsheets. If you have one or, even better, two non-school qualifications this would give you a greater income and less chance of being unemployed. A third non-school qualification decreases your employment income.

https://www.abs.gov.au/statistics/people/education/qualifications-and-work/2018-19

Lionking's claims are not only vague and unsourced but wrong and these stats show this.

Why would you need a UBI to do training?
 
Accounting won't be automated anytime soon (if ever).

Well, yes and no.

A few years ago I had a plumber come in to do some work on the central heating in my late father's house. When he was finished, he emailed me an invoice from his phone which I paid electronically.

When I used the same plumber a decade or so earlier, I received a handwritten invoice in the post and sent him a cheque.

Whilst the current system doesn't eliminate the need for "accounting", the amount of human effort involved in issuing the invoice, sending payment, depositing payment, reconciling invoice and payment and entering all of this into the company accounts has been reduced to a few seconds from an hour or more.

I expect that his accountant's life has got a lot easier too, not least because when I was talking to the plumber he said that he was able to log most purchases electronically, so not shoeboxes full of receipts any more.

Our requirement for accountants' time has reduced significantly over the years. Our company is small (mid £ six figures turnover) and we used to have an accountant to do our payroll, prepare our accounts and then audit the accounts at the end of the year. We've switched to some free accounting software and now we only require the audit. The software handles billing and payroll and so we only have the accountant audit the accounts these days.

If it wasn't for the need for an audit, then there'd be no need for an accountant.
 
People should check out the UK Post Office - they’ve managed to automate a whole slew of accountancy and criminal prosecutions!
 
Well, yes and no.

A few years ago I had a plumber come in to do some work on the central heating in my late father's house. When he was finished, he emailed me an invoice from his phone which I paid electronically.

When I used the same plumber a decade or so earlier, I received a handwritten invoice in the post and sent him a cheque.

Whilst the current system doesn't eliminate the need for "accounting", the amount of human effort involved in issuing the invoice, sending payment, depositing payment, reconciling invoice and payment and entering all of this into the company accounts has been reduced to a few seconds from an hour or more.

I expect that his accountant's life has got a lot easier too, not least because when I was talking to the plumber he said that he was able to log most purchases electronically, so not shoeboxes full of receipts any more.

Our requirement for accountants' time has reduced significantly over the years. Our company is small (mid £ six figures turnover) and we used to have an accountant to do our payroll, prepare our accounts and then audit the accounts at the end of the year. We've switched to some free accounting software and now we only require the audit. The software handles billing and payroll and so we only have the accountant audit the accounts these days.

If it wasn't for the need for an audit, then there'd be no need for an accountant.

Indeed.

BACK IN THE 1990s WHEN I FIRST STARTED MY BUSINESS
I used to have to send my accountant a printout of my Quicken Cashbook for the year, as well as wages documents such as staff payslips and copies of returns for PAYE (Income Tax Withholding in the US), GST (VAT in UK, Sales Tax in US). Six to eight weeks later, I would receive, in the mail, a printed set of accounts, with my pre-printed IRD (IRS in the US) Provisional Tax Forms showing me when and how much those payments will be.
My accountant had a staff of about 15.


NOW
I upload my Quicken cashbook directly to the accountant's website. The accountant gets the PAYE and GST information direct from the IRD website. Within three or four working days my accountant emails me a secure download link to PDFs of my accounts and my Provisional Tax Forms
My accountant's staff now consists of him and a secretary (his wife).
 
Indeed.

BACK IN THE 1990s WHEN I FIRST STARTED MY BUSINESS
I used to have to send my accountant a printout of my Quicken Cashbook for the year, as well as wages documents such as staff payslips and copies of returns for PAYE (Income Tax Withholding in the US), GST (VAT in UK, Sales Tax in US). Six to eight weeks later, I would receive, in the mail, a printed set of accounts, with my pre-printed IRD (IRS in the US) Provisional Tax Forms showing me when and how much those payments will be.
My accountant had a staff of about 15.


NOW
I upload my Quicken cashbook directly to the accountant's website. The accountant gets the PAYE and GST information direct from the IRD website. Within three or four working days my accountant emails me a secure download link to PDFs of my accounts and my Provisional Tax Forms
My accountant's staff now consists of him and a secretary (his wife).

In Australia, we used to fill in paper forms to do our personal annual taxation returns. Took about 6 weeks to get our refund cheque. Now it is within two weeks and the money deposited into our bank account. Less labour required.
 
Utter crap. I’ve posted skill shortage occupations.

Now what chance does this have of being implemented?

You do not even remember what you posted. You posted mostly industries, not occupations. Plus they are grossly underpaid. Hence Australians refuse to do the job. Offer a decent wage and conditions and these jobs will be filled.
And I remind you that you have not given any sources for what you are claiming. So we can all assume it is you who are talking utter crap.

No, you are wrong. There are a massive number of unskilled jobs, which used to be filled by people on visas, waiting to be filled. In hospitality, agriculture, cleaning, factory work etc etc.

The problem we have is that unemployed people are unwilling to do these jobs. A UBI system would make this worse, assuming the UBI would be higher than unemployment benefit.
 
I work in middle management in a metal industry, and I have my doubts of how universal income can work in a globalised economy. Does any of you work in the productive sector? Industry, food production, etc., you know, actually "making stuff"? In my (admittedly simplistic) view of economy, I can´t stop thinking that "making stuff" is the base of the economy, and the rest follow. If a UI makes us have to pay bigger salaries to our blue collar workers...

(who have to sit for 8 hours in front of a dirty machine pumping out metal parts, with noise, dirt and boredom guaranteed for the rest of their working life, I mean, they would ask for a raise or just go home and live off the UI, unless you make the UI so low that they can´t afford enough good things for their kids... )

...then our industries would not be competitive, compared to other countries without UI.. and the whole thing would tumble down. Unless your economy can sustain itself from petrol, tourism or something else, but even then, strategically letting the industrial and productive tissue die off is quite blindsighted in the long run, IMO. (just more of what is happening to industry in Europe and the USA in the last few years with globalisation).
 
Again this is why the whole "Post-scarcity utopia" stories always start IN the post-scarcity utopia and gloss over in very broad strokes how it got there.

It's easy to imagine a world where everyone has to work. It's easy to imagine a world where nobody has to work. Imagining any kind of transitory world between those two is hard.

A "Do" and a "Do Not" society regardless of how noble its intentions is just not stable, as much or more so than a "Have" and a "Have Not" one.
 
I forgot to mention automation, which many of you think is "just around the corner" and that those blue collar jobs will all disappear soon, but the reality is not that simple, automation is implemented to the highest possible degree in industry and improvements will be quite gradual in the future. Fully automated factories are a thing of the imagination, unless humanlike AI comes accross.
 
I work in middle management in a metal industry, and I have my doubts of how universal income can work in a globalised economy. Does any of you work in the productive sector? Industry, food production, etc., you know, actually "making stuff"? In my (admittedly simplistic) view of economy, I can´t stop thinking that "making stuff" is the base of the economy, and the rest follow. If a UI makes us have to pay bigger salaries to our blue collar workers...

(who have to sit for 8 hours in front of a dirty machine pumping out metal parts, with noise, dirt and boredom guaranteed for the rest of their working life, I mean, they would ask for a raise or just go home and live off the UI, unless you make the UI so low that they can´t afford enough good things for their kids... )

...then our industries would not be competitive, compared to other countries without UI.. and the whole thing would tumble down. Unless your economy can sustain itself from petrol, tourism or something else, but even then, strategically letting the industrial and productive tissue die off is quite blindsighted in the long run, IMO. (just more of what is happening to industry in Europe and the USA in the last few years with globalisation).

It's nice to know that our economy is based on making the life of a percentage of the population a living hell.
 
It's nice to know that our economy is based on making the life of a percentage of the population a living hell.


"Living hell" is putting it a bit strongly, especially considering that non-productive sectors also include positions that those holding them don't look on as heaven exactly; but I agree with your criticism, that our economy is, indeed, based on exploitation; and I also agree with what I think is your implication, that at least some part of the in-principle criticism that UBI so often draws owes from people having so internalized this principle that this work "ethic" sometimes comes to be looked on as some virtue, or if not that, then at least as necessary to the functioning of the economy. I believe that latter kind of criticism is based on a flawed assumption, or at least, on an unevidenced assumption.


eta:

I work in middle management in a metal industry, and I have my doubts of how universal income can work in a globalised economy. Does any of you work in the productive sector? Industry, food production, etc., you know, actually "making stuff"? In my (admittedly simplistic) view of economy, I can´t stop thinking that "making stuff" is the base of the economy, and the rest follow. If a UI makes us have to pay bigger salaries to our blue collar workers...

(who have to sit for 8 hours in front of a dirty machine pumping out metal parts, with noise, dirt and boredom guaranteed for the rest of their working life, I mean, they would ask for a raise or just go home and live off the UI, unless you make the UI so low that they can´t afford enough good things for their kids... )

...then our industries would not be competitive, compared to other countries without UI.. and the whole thing would tumble down. Unless your economy can sustain itself from petrol, tourism or something else, but even then, strategically letting the industrial and productive tissue die off is quite blindsighted in the long run, IMO. (just more of what is happening to industry in Europe and the USA in the last few years with globalisation).


Actually I agree, in the short run at least, a good many positions are at risk of going unfilled, not just in what you refer to as the productive sectors, but in other -- non-productive? -- sectors as well.

In the long run, though, a UBI would -- should, at any rate -- result in elimination, or at least minimization, of jobs that no one would want to do unless on pain of poverty and starvation. That would seem to be the civilized ideal, as opposed an economy that is based, in practice if not necessarily in principle, on exploitation.

I suggest that even this short run difficulty can be dealt with by allowing a lag of a few years between announcement and actual implementation of a UBI program. (On the other hand, if the necessary consensus for a UBI is already availaible, then to defer it by a few years in order to accomadate industry, thereby resulting in withholding that UBI from those that have need of it, if only for a few years more, would appear unconscionable , and deserving of the same kind of criticism that Olmstead makes of your position.)

Another possible work-around might be a temporary assistance, financial I suppose, else via indirect tax breaks or something, to industry? That again might be difficult, given that the UBI needs to be funded from taxes.

So that the difficulty you bring up does not seem to have some obvious solution, at least in the short term, true. Some tariff-based protection to domestic industry, maybe, to assist them over the transition? That kind of thing comes with its own set of problems, though.
 
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That's where I am on it--there's something askew when the labor market depends on people fearing homelessness in order to get them to accept the work. I think if survival were not at stake the employment deals made would be more equitable. Considering the massive growth of profits over time, how is it that the economy cannot endure it?
 
Again this is why the whole "Post-scarcity utopia" stories always start IN the post-scarcity utopia and gloss over in very broad strokes how it got there.

It's easy to imagine a world where everyone has to work. It's easy to imagine a world where nobody has to work. Imagining any kind of transitory world between those two is hard.

"Everybody works part-time."

Perhaps I could get a part-time job imagining things for you, until you can afford an automated imaginationbot? (Do not get the Imaginotron 3000, it can only imagine new plots for Degrassi, and "Spinner comes back as the janitor" isn't worth considering.)
 
That is just right-wing/conservative BS spin.

With UBI, people can afford something over and above "bottom rung of the ladder" subsistence, which leads to them being able to afford necessities of life that they might have to go without. This means they spend more... if they spend more, they pay more tax. The businesses they spend it with do better, and they also pay more tax, and they have to spend more with their suppliers to cope with demand, so the supplies pay more tax. That works its way up the chain, to importing and manufacturing and services. The increased tax take means the government has more to spend on things such as social programmes, health, education and services. Less poverty also leads to less crime.

Its a philosophy which holds that everyone is important and no-one gets left behind, that can only be a good thing for society as a whole.

That's a very nice theory, really, but does it work in practice? Has it been tried anywhere? I could see employers relying on the government to pay a decent wage to their employees, for instance.
 

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