• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Universal Income.

what is the problem with people not having jobs that pay?
For many centuries, most women did non-paying jobs that still needed doing; society and the economy need people to work in ways that can not be clearly linked to an income stream.
A UBI society could and should come with creating local marketplaces for voluntarily work that will make for much healthier communities and individuals.
 
psionl0 said:
Wealthy people tend to believe that every taxpayer dollar that goes to a poor person comes directly from their wallets.
Click to expand...

and they tend to believe that every dollar they receive is the result of their own work and brilliance; I think we can safely ignore such beliefs as the self-serving delusions that they are.
 
lionking said:
Marginally off topic, but those jobs have been replaced by huge numbers of new jobs in Australia at least. The link below lists 100s of skill shortage occupations:

https://immi.homeaffairs.gov.au/visas/working-in-australia/skill-occupation-list#

Australia is aiming at under 5% unemployment, and we will not have large numbers of people that we don’t have jobs for. I can’t see why the position will be different in NZ.
Click to expand...

Sorry to rain on your parade, but no, it won't be enough.

As you go back into the past, you find more and more discrete occupations and jobs, and they become more labour intensive, with less and less people to do the work, but as you go into the future, you find less and less discrete occupations and jobs, and they will become less and less labour intensive with more and more people wanting to do the work. Its like entropy and time - it only goes in one direction.

Oh sure, people are still needed to run the automation... for now, but the numbers of those jobs is nowhere even close the number of jobs the automation has replaced.

For example, automotive assembly plants used to employ near a thousand people in every plant. Now a lot of those plants are run by a few dozen people and 300-400 robot car assemblers. Some tasks fall to humans such as fitting boots and bonnets, but most are automatic... and they can work in the dark, without need for medical cover, or OSHA, or meal and toilet breaks.

The greatest promise for new jobs in is the renewable energy industries, literally hundreds of thousands of new jobs will be created, across a huge range of manufacturing and engineering skillsets, however....
Political Rant Spoilered

RANT! ...the problem here is that it is very political... and very partisan. It is mostly those on the political right that are the greatest deniers of climate change, and the greatest opponents of solar and wind power, and electric vehicles. Just look at all the insane scare-mongering being spread on Fox News, Newsmax, OAN and the associated politicians they are clarions for, Taylor-Greene, Trump, Hawley, Cruz etc. ...

"OMG, THE EBIL DEMS ARE GOING TO TAKE AWAY OUR HAMBURGERS, AND AND AND THEY'RE GOING TO CANCEL THANKSGIVING AND AND AND ITS THEIR FAULT I CAN'T GET MY CHICK-FIL-A SAUCE!!!!!!!

So long as the the right has that attitude; as long as they believe climate change is fake, then there is the danger of having another Trump or someone like him elected to office - someone who is willing to sacrifice everyone's future for his own present personal gain. This isn't just a problem for America - I don't think the world can survive another fours years of having an environmental wrecking ball in the White House.

 
The Great Zaganza said:
what is the problem with people not having jobs that pay?
For many centuries, most women did non-paying jobs that still needed doing; society and the economy need people to work in ways that can not be clearly linked to an income stream.
A UBI society could and should come with creating local marketplaces for voluntarily work that will make for much healthier communities and individuals.
Click to expand...

I don't think you have thought this through!

Oh sure, I agree with the rest of your argument, but do you really want to use this example as part of it?
 
Last edited:
why not?


But if you prefer: no Church in the world could function without armies of unpaid volunteers. Neither could political parties.
 
Last edited:
lionking said:
Marginally off topic, but those jobs have been replaced by huge numbers of new jobs in Australia at least. The link below lists 100s of skill shortage occupations:

https://immi.homeaffairs.gov.au/visas/working-in-australia/skill-occupation-list#

Australia is aiming at under 5% unemployment, and we will not have large numbers of people that we don’t have jobs for. I can’t see why the position will be different in NZ.
Click to expand...

smartcooky said:
Sorry to rain on your parade, but no, it won't be enough.

As you go back into the past, you find more and more discrete occupations and jobs, and they become more labour intensive, with less and less people to do the work, but as you go into the future, you find less and less discrete occupations and jobs, and they will become less and less labour intensive with more and more people wanting to do the work. Its like entropy and time - it only goes in one direction.

Oh sure, people are still needed to run the automation... for now, but the numbers of those jobs is nowhere even close the number of jobs the automation has replaced.
<cut for length>
Click to expand...

I think you are both wrong. Many jobs are disappearing. Most of those are unskilled. The jobs that have been created are skilled. They require years of training and experience to do the new jobs well. If that was all that happened then there would be heaps of unemployed. But what has happened is that GDP per person has gone up. In other words, more goods and services have been produced. An obvious example is that until the early 1970s, most people left school after about 12 years of education (and going back in time even less). Now it is common to go to college or university to get further qualifications. This requires more teachers and other resources. Plus they are no longer in the workforce.
I can see a big problem ahead. There are some people who cannot do skilled work. These may become unemployable, or at least spend long periods of time unemployed. Give them a UBI and the problem will be partly solved.
 
smartcooky said:
It cannot, and will not stay that way... it is inevitable that we will end up with many more people than we have jobs for.

Think of all the jobs that used to be jobs done by people, that are all done by automation or technology now. Also, industries and trades that used to employ people, but which no longer exist... You seem to be about the same age as me, so some of those jobs you may recognise as having disappeared, or all but disappeared, in your lifetime.

• Telephone switchboard operators
• Link Boys
• Knockeruppers (not what you're thinking; they were also known as waker-uppers)
• Full service gas station attendants
• Ice cutters (which is actually a whole industry that employed tens of thousands of people - it completely vanished in less than a decade)
• Elevator operators
• Lamplighters
• Record stores
• Pin setters
• Telegram messengers
• Guard car attendants
• Computers (as in human computer)
• Bus conductors
• Linotype operators
• Scissor grinders
• Drysalters
• Crossing sweepers
• Newspaper vending boys

And there are recent ones, as well as ones in the process of disappearing, or that will disappear in next the decade or two. Here are just a few of the many....

• Attended gas stations (are being replacing by automated gas stations)
• Video rental stores are all but gone
• Cashiers and checkout operators (replaced by self-checkout)
• Flight attendants
• Automotive assembly line workers
• Travel agents (replaced by Trivago et al)
• Bank tellers (replaced by ATMs and online banking)
• Textile workers
• Posties
• Retail jewellers
Click to expand...

rjh01 said:
I think you are both wrong. Many jobs are disappearing. Most of those are unskilled. The jobs that have been created are skilled. They require years of training and experience to do the new jobs well. If that was all that happened then there would be heaps of unemployed. But what has happened is that GDP per person has gone up. In other words, more goods and services have been produced. An obvious example is that until the early 1970s, most people left school after about 12 years of education (and going back in time even less). Now it is common to go to college or university to get further qualifications. This requires more teachers and other resources. Plus they are no longer in the workforce.
I can see a big problem ahead. There are some people who cannot do skilled work. These may become unemployable, or at least spend long periods of time unemployed. Give them a UBI and the problem will be partly solved.
Click to expand...

No, you are wrong. There are a massive number of unskilled jobs, which used to be filled by people on visas, waiting to be filled. In hospitality, agriculture, cleaning, factory work etc etc.

The problem we have is that unemployed people are unwilling to do these jobs. A UBI system would make this worse, assuming the UBI would be higher than unemployment benefit.
 
lionking said:
No, you are wrong. There are a massive number of unskilled jobs, which used to be filled by people on visas, waiting to be filled. In hospitality, agriculture, cleaning, factory work etc etc.

The problem we have is that unemployed people are unwilling to do these jobs. A UBI system would make this worse, assuming the UBI would be higher than unemployment benefit.
Click to expand...

Agree with that.

I think that Covid and the blocking of workers coming in kind of was the perfect experiment into how many unemployed locals would get of their *** to fill in for them.
 
Chanakya said:
I don't see why higher taxes will mean a shrinkage of the economy. The money is being redistributed, not removed from the economy.
Click to expand...
That's due to the excess burden or "deadweight loss" of tax, which is not widely disputed.

The point of any tax/transfer system is whether the benefit (social or economic or anything) outweighs that cost.
 
lionking said:
No, you are wrong. There are a massive number of unskilled jobs, which used to be filled by people on visas, waiting to be filled. In hospitality, agriculture, cleaning, factory work etc etc.

The problem we have is that unemployed people are unwilling to do these jobs. A UBI system would make this worse, assuming the UBI would be higher than unemployment benefit.
Click to expand...

I disagree, and I will continue to disagree. I have seen nothing to convince me I am wrong about this.

Get back to me in 2030
 
cullennz said:
If every body of working age has the same amount of base money, wouldn't everything go up in price, as the businesses know everyone can afford the new rate?
Click to expand...
Perhaps, probably not much and maybe not even measurably.

Benefits and taxes rarely ever end up wholly flowing to or from the intended policy target folks, some leakage of "incidence" is inevitable. But that does not need to rule any policy out before it starts.

I am not aware of evidence that increases in minimum wage rates can be linked to increases in inflation, anywhere. That would be the best outside information to base this fear/hypothesis on.

Then again--even if UBI was expected to have some inflation impact, which I think should be entertained, the proper question, again, is whether the benefit more than offsets this.
 
lionking said:
No, you are wrong. There are a massive number of unskilled jobs, which used to be filled by people on visas, waiting to be filled. In hospitality, agriculture, cleaning, factory work etc etc.

The problem we have is that unemployed people are unwilling to do these jobs. A UBI system would make this worse, assuming the UBI would be higher than unemployment benefit.
Click to expand...

Horrible work with poor pay and conditions. That is why we need to import workers to do these jobs. One example is fruit picking. $13 per hour for someone who knows how to do the job, with no job security and poor housing.
Read more: https://www.abc.net.au/news/rural/2...-pickers-critical,-but-wages-abysmal/13023950
 
lionking said:
No, you are wrong. There are a massive number of unskilled jobs, which used to be filled by people on visas, waiting to be filled. In hospitality, agriculture, cleaning, factory work etc etc.

The problem we have is that unemployed people are unwilling to do these jobs. A UBI system would make this worse, assuming the UBI would be higher than unemployment benefit.
Click to expand...
That's where you are wrong. People could do these jobs without losing their UBI unlike unemployment benefits.
 
psionl0 said:
That's where you are wrong. People could do these jobs without losing their UBI unlike unemployment benefits.
Click to expand...

So? Unemployed people are offered thousands to go fruit picking, but they don’t take it up.

Look, I acknowledge there problems filling certain jobs. My point was to counter smartcooky’s contention, without evidence, that there are far more people without work than there are jobs in NZ. That’s nonsense.
 
psionl0 said:
That's where you are wrong. People could do these jobs without losing their UBI unlike unemployment benefits.
Click to expand...

Pretty sure here people can work up to a certain monetary limit without losing their benefit, might be wrong though.
 
Here it is

Social Security Act 2018, Sched 2 (“Income Test” definitions), Sched 4, Pt 1

If you’re a single beneficiary without dependent children:

the first $90 gross (before tax) per week doesn’t affect your main benefit
after this the main benefit abates (reduces) by 70 cents in the dollar.

If you’re a single beneficiary with one or more dependent children:

the first $115 gross (before tax) per week doesn’t affect your main benefit (Work and Income also has a discretion to ignore up to $20 of your earnings that you use to pay for childcare)
any amount you earn over $115, up to $215, abates your main benefit by 30 cents in the dollar
any amount you earn over $215 abates your main benefit by 70 cents in the dollar.
Click to expand...

https://communitylaw.org.nz/communi...ing-money-will-affect-your-benefit-abatement/
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom