There is a difference between going into debt and securing a debt with UBI. See Suburban Turkey's post re social security.
Universal Income.
- Thread starter RolandRat
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There is a difference between going into debt and securing a debt with UBI. See Suburban Turkey's post re social security.
Belz...
Fiend God
Reminds me of a bit by Jon Stewart on his show back in the day, when Repugnicans were complaining that implementing sensible gun control legislation was useless because each effort individually didn't solve the problem.
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
I would say "no". There is no good reason to make life so easy for irresponsible lenders.
OTOH UBI is supposed to be about making things simpler. The more caveats, the less UBI like it becomes. The notion that the government needs to protect people from themselves is a scary one for me.
With the exceptions of government debts, if you have a wage garnishment, you've already been to court.
I think it is both. In particular, i fear it will worsen out labor/skills shortage problem in Australia. And before people say “if employers paid decent wages there would be no problem”, the minimum full-time wage here is $38,000. I was talking to a factory manager who can’t fill jobs where he is offering $58,000.
A UBI (remember it has to be enough to provide a basic income, so far more than $1000 a month) would worsen this problem in my view.
angrysoba
Philosophile
Surely that's what food stamps are.
The public cannot be trusted with money so give them coupons.
UBI is the opposite. It gives people money that they know best how to use.
The anti-UBI voices are the ones saying that people will use it to piss up against a wall, gamble, play video games, becaome a leach on society etc...
YOU are the ones being paternalistic about this in terms of people's spending.
Belz...
Fiend God
I suppose you mean because people will decide not to work due to this.
I believe there was at least one post debunking this here.
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
If the UBI amount were sufficiently high for my circumstances, I would keep working but possibly in a different job or field. There are jobs I'd prefer to my current one but can't pursue because they don't pay as well.
arthwollipot
Limerick Purist Pronouns: He/Him
No - a full UBI should replace all of those programs.
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
I'll believe it when I see the legislation abolishing all those other programs.
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arthwollipot
Limerick Purist Pronouns: He/Him
*shrug*
I'm just describing a UBI as it has been proposed. If that upsets you, that's not my problem.
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"In Wales, a survey showed 69% of people supported a trial, and a letter asking the British government to consider similar plans was signed by over 500 cross-party politicians from across the UK. Already, 32 local councils across the country have voted in favour of a pilot in their areas.
"Since COVID-19, there has been a global surge in support too. In the USA, Los Angeles has become the latest city to launch an experiment, and there have been trials in Canada, South Korea and Kenya. In Europe, a poll last year, covering France, Germany, Italy, Poland, Portugal and Spain, found that more than two-thirds of people were in favour of a basic income."
https://theconversation.com/amp/sup...-universal-basic-income-and-rightly-so-161309
That's a lot of nobody caring.
"Since COVID-19, there has been a global surge in support too. In the USA, Los Angeles has become the latest city to launch an experiment, and there have been trials in Canada, South Korea and Kenya. In Europe, a poll last year, covering France, Germany, Italy, Poland, Portugal and Spain, found that more than two-thirds of people were in favour of a basic income."
https://theconversation.com/amp/sup...-universal-basic-income-and-rightly-so-161309
That's a lot of nobody caring.
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
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For those who think I’m making up the job crisis facing Australia:
https://www.smh.com.au/national/aus...really-need-is-good-jobs-20210527-p57vo3.html
This has come about despite high minimum wages (compared to other nations) and with our current welfare systems. Offering more incentives for people not to seek work via a UBI will only exacerbate this in my view.
It doesn’t matter how popular a UBI might be, it would be damaging to our economy.
https://www.smh.com.au/national/aus...really-need-is-good-jobs-20210527-p57vo3.html
This has come about despite high minimum wages (compared to other nations) and with our current welfare systems. Offering more incentives for people not to seek work via a UBI will only exacerbate this in my view.
It doesn’t matter how popular a UBI might be, it would be damaging to our economy.
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
Employers can just keep raising their wages until they're more attractive than the UBI.
Of course this will raise the prices of goods and services, causing the cost of living to go up as well. People at the low end of the labor market will soon be priced out of a decent lifestyle.
But this in turn can be solved by increasing the UBI.
So I think this scheme will work out just fine.
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
You fail to mention that anybody getting work loses their jobseeker payments (something that doesn't happen under UBI) which makes casual or seasonal employment unattractive.
The other problem is that training in Australia is abysmal. It has always been cheaper to import the skilled workers instead of training up the local population. This has come to a head only because Covid-19 has forced the closure of Australian borders.
Belz...
Fiend God
It's just a repeat of your earlier claim without further explanation. Frankly I don't know why you reach that conclusion at all.
Probably not adding anything but I'm in a meeting so....
The opposition to UBI seems to be a lot of letting the perfect stand in the way of the good.
I think, if it can be done, UBI is better than most current social safety spending. Less paternalism and less bureaucracy. I agree, it must replace existing systems rather than add to them. I also agree that that is a big ask. I still think it would be better to give everyone 1000 dollars a month than give them 1000 dollars a month if the do.....this...........and that...........and don't make X.
Universal means everyone and basic means well, basic. Enough to cover the absolute minimum, maybe not even that, just enough to relieve stress
The opposition to UBI seems to be a lot of letting the perfect stand in the way of the good.
I think, if it can be done, UBI is better than most current social safety spending. Less paternalism and less bureaucracy. I agree, it must replace existing systems rather than add to them. I also agree that that is a big ask. I still think it would be better to give everyone 1000 dollars a month than give them 1000 dollars a month if the do.....this...........and that...........and don't make X.
Universal means everyone and basic means well, basic. Enough to cover the absolute minimum, maybe not even that, just enough to relieve stress