Universal Income.

What does that mean other than $6000 is available without tax increases?

As I said earlier tax increases would pay for a higher UBI, but I just can’t see governments increasing taxes.
John Howard successfully calculated that he could campaign on a GST without losing so many votes that he lost government so it can be done.

Of course, getting the UBI from $6,000 up to the jobseeker level of $16,000+ is quite a jump but it would mostly be cutting into pensions so the necessary tax increase might be small enough to campaign for if we have a politician who is "mean and tricky" enough.

A campaign on eliminating jobseeker/single mum etc payments might work.
 
Here's the significant part:

The Economist estimates the United States could pay each person $6,300 a year if it cashed out all non-health transfer payments (the figure is $6,100 for Australia).
Note that this is referring to a single source of funding. There is more than just this source. $6,300 (or $6,100) is the portion of the total that could be provided by cashing out all non-health transfer payments. The remainder can be funded by other sources including but not limited to additional taxation.
 
Here's the funding section of the link from Parliament House that arthwollipot posted.

There are two major sources of funds for a UBI: savings from cuts to other programs and increases in taxation. Libertarians like Charles Murray and Matt Zwolinski propose using a UBI as a replacement for the welfare state. They argue most or all of the funding could come from abolishing existing programs.[21] The Economist estimates the United States could pay each person $6,300 a year if it cashed out all non-health transfer payments (the figure is $6,100 for Australia).[22] However, The Economist suggests that it is unlikely any political leader would be prepared to deny the full range of existing benefits that go to groups such as age pensioners.

Basic income advocates who want to combine a UBI with existing programs have suggested a number of ways to increase tax revenue. For example, in Challenge magazine, Luke Whitington (a member of the NSW Labor Left) suggests ‘a broad based progressive land tax’ and taxes on multinational corporations.[23] American writer Scott Santens makes a number of suggestions including a carbon tax, a financial transaction tax and a new top income-tax bracket.[24] Matt Bruenig and Elizabeth Stoker Bruenig suggest cuts to tax expenditures that benefit high-income earners and cuts to the defence budget.[25]

Most proposals for funding a UBI rely on back-of-the-envelope calculations rather than detailed costings. Advocates are usually trying to show that it is possible to pay for a UBI while leaving the details for later. Some—like Sam Altman (president of startup accelerating firm Y Combinator)—suggest that that the funding problem will be much easier to solve in the future:

... technological improvements should generate an abundance of resources. Although basic income seems fiscally challenging today, in a world where technology replaces existing jobs and basic income becomes necessary, technological improvements should generate an abundance of resources and the cost of living should fall dramatically.[26]

https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parlia...rary/pubs/rp/rp1617/BasicIncome#_Toc467232163

Critics only focus on one source of funding.

However, the schemes can use multiple sources of funding.

Budgets are restructured all the time. This would not be an outrageous restructuring.
 
Here's the funding section of the link from Parliament House that arthwollipot posted.



https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parlia...rary/pubs/rp/rp1617/BasicIncome#_Toc467232163

Critics only focus on one source of funding.

However, the schemes can use multiple sources of funding.

Budgets are restructured all the time. This would not be an outrageous restructuring.

As I said earlier, Labor lost the last election over the minor franking credit cut. Higher taxes and cutting services would be electoral suicide.
 
As I said earlier, Labor lost the last election over the minor franking credit cut. Higher taxes and cutting services would be electoral suicide.
You can't claim that this single issue caused Labor's loss. Bill Shorten was Labor's biggest liability.
 
You can't claim that this single issue caused Labor's loss. Bill Shorten was Labor's biggest liability.

Yes, and he brought in franking credits which lost the election.

Anyway, of marginal relevance. My view, to repeat, is that a UBI is of minor, if any, social benefit, and is politically toxic.

Others disagree, that’s fine. But I’m getting pretty annoyed that I’m criticised for not seeing the overwhelming beauty of a massive wealth redistribution. Not liking a UBI is not being unskeptical.
 
Yes, and he brought in franking credits which lost the election.
He probably would have lost the election without the franking issue. He was that unpopular.

Anyway, of marginal relevance. My view, to repeat, is that a UBI is of minor, if any, social benefit, and is politically toxic.
Only if your biggest concern is somebody not having to work for a living.

Others disagree, that’s fine. But I’m getting pretty annoyed that I’m criticised for not seeing the overwhelming beauty of a massive wealth redistribution. Not liking a UBI is not being unskeptical.
So from $6000 without change to the tax scales it is suddenly a "massive wealth redistribution"? :rolleyes:
 
Another person declaring a UBI “good” no doubt by definition.

Covid stimulus packages went out into the economy and jobs and businesses were saved. But of the money going from government into the economy, only a small amount comes back through taxes. Governments around the world (Australia included) are facing massive deficits which could take decades to pay off. The UBI will worsen this.

Yes large tax rises will help offset the deficit, but I don’t see too many governments with the appetite for that. Most developed nations seek to reduce tax and spending.

Never ending and growing trillion dollar deficits are not a good thing in my view.

I wonder if there's been more going on over the last year which could impact the economy than just people being given money?
 
Not liking a UBI is not being unskeptical.

Arguing from principles and hypotheticals is unskeptical when it's possible to simply perform the experiment and analyze the results. UBI isn't a theory for metempsychosis or a proposal of how to achieve FTL travel. It's a real-world, concrete set of actions that if carried out would have measurable, quantifiable results which could be observed. The rational, skeptical thing to do would be to conduct experiments by applying UBI of differing magnitudes to select populations in different places for a limited time. It need not be applied instantly and permanently to everybody. If the experiments prove UBI to be practical and desirable, then we can move up to experiments on larger populations. If they prove it to be impractical and undesirable then we can either disgard the idea or refine it to counter the observed problems with it.

There's no need for anybody to get emotional about a testable idea when they could just test it and settle the matter.
 
Oh, I see.

Interesting. You haven’t even made an argument, yet mine is not developed? What a joke.

What's with the sudden whataboutism? Why do you expect me to make an argument since I've made no claims?

You're the one who says UBI can't work, but you can't be arsed to support that with anything but personal attacks. I think that shows the weakness of your position.
 
Okay real talk.

Does anyone see America actually being the first country to pull this off?

Like free education, universal health care, and such isn't this yet another one of those things that Europe is probably going to do way before we even try it?

If we're being cynical here the fact that it hasn't even been really attempted large scale in the perfect glorious socialist utopias like Sweden and Denmark is really all the proof you need that what we're talking about at the very least isn't easy.
 
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Okay real talk.

Does anyone see America actually being the first country to pull this off?

Like free education, universal health care, and such isn't this yet another one of those things that Europe is probably going to do way before we even try it?

If we're being cynical here the fact that it hasn't even been really attempted large scale in the perfect glorious socialist utopias like Sweden and Denmark is really all the proof you need that what we're talking about at the very least isn't easy.

No. I engage with this topic purely as a thought experiment.

Having poor people suffer is a pretty important part of the American political system. Even modest welfare proposals that address this misery of the underclass is met with massive resistance, a sweeping program like this is out of the question. If anything, I see this country on track to further dismantling our tattered social safety net, not improving it.
 
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No. I engage with this topic purely as a thought experiment.

Having poor people suffer is a pretty important part of the American political consciousness. Even modest welfare proposals that address this misery of the underclass is met with massive resistance, a sweeping program like this is out of the question. If anything, I see this country on track to further dismantling our tattered social safety net, not improving it.

Unfortunately I think you're right.

As I said earlier, it's the 'screw you, I got mine' principle.
 
Okay real talk.

Does anyone see America actually being the first country to pull this off?

Like free education, universal health care, and such isn't this yet another one of those things that Europe is probably going to do way before we even try it?

If we're being cynical here the fact that it hasn't even been really attempted large scale in the perfect glorious socialist utopias like Sweden and Denmark is really all the proof you need that what we're talking about at the very least isn't easy.

Why would you experiment in a perfect glorious socialist utopia?

Much better idea to test it in the US.
 
Wasn't it established that UBI could be popular in the US, just so long as it was called a "freedom dividend"?

I think it would help if it were credited to Jesus. "Jesus wants YOU to have this blessing, for America's freedom!" Jesus is super popular here, he could sell almost anything.
 
I think it would help if it were credited to Jesus. "Jesus wants YOU to have this blessing, for America's freedom!" Jesus is super popular here, he could sell almost anything.

Congratulations on 60K posts, TM. I guess monkeys with typewriters can come up with somewhat-legible and coherent writings after all.
 

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