Understanding the Liberal Mindset

[42gerg]

In terms of substantive legal rights, no. The issue being contested was the social construction of marriage though, not merely a bundle of legal rights and duties. You asked "How would the left actually meet the right halfway on gay marriage?" and I gave you a salient example of how they actually did.

There are hundreds of differnt social constructions of marriage. What do you think of the compromise of just having government recognize civil unions and let the couple's decide to do an additional ceremony to make it a "marriage ". If there no difference legally then what's the objection?

Until the next time the Democratic Party had the power to move the ball forward, one must presume.

Which as I noted happened 17 years later. Plenty of homosexuals were able to serve without incident. Seemed like time to allow them have a career and be open about who they are dating or getting married to. Why remove otherwise qualified people just because of disproven stereotypes?

I need you to be more specific about the issue being solved and who got the government involved.

You noted corporate diversity consultants and school codes of conduct.

 

[Trausti]

Accepted that you cannot define a thing that you are never reluctant to criticise.

I was observing that individualism, limited government, and open debate are no longer (contemporary) liberal values.

 

[ahhell]

We've started this thread with the wrong word. It should have been left or progressive. Americans are the only folks that use liberal to mean left.

 

[ahhell]

I was addressing the counterfactual claim from #1,178 that no one right-of-center had the guts to oppose Trump "after the Nomination" and I think it would be fair to say that the Republicans who did oppose Trump did so out of dedication to certain fundamental values cherished by enlightenment liberals.

This is true. Polling suggests that about 10-20% of the republican party are not on board with MAGA though some them still voted for him because he wasn't a Dem. Of federal office holders, I am not aware of any republicans left that I would vote for. The may mouth things I agree with but they are all cowards or were hounded out of office by MAGA and on occasion with help from Dems.

There are a few Right of center folks still opposing trump, The Dispatch is full of them. A few of the conservative/libertarian think tanks do. They rightly point out that MAGA may be on the right but they aren't conservatives.

Which is part of the problem with this thread. The DSA types are on the left but they are not liberals, at least not many of them.

Not every thread has to be about Trump.

At least this is a thread about politics and not some mildly amusing thread about entertainment that someone pops up with some Trump comment. It would be nice to talk about things without trump but he has basically ruined all of the things even angry flame wars.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

O tempore, o mores!

Again.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Trump has tested people's beliefs about themselves and their country, and many if not most have failed that test.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

My body parts still count for something?

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Some people pay a lot for dry-aged meat....

 

[d4m10n]

Interesting discussion of various definitions of "liberal" starting around 13-14 minutes into the video.

Buckley came up with the quirky idea that the overlap of ideology shared between George McGovern and LBJ should certainly count as liberalism.

 

[Emily's Cat]

MArginally on topic...

I'm starting to think we need three axes. Left-Right for economic policy; libertarian-authoritarian for social policy; conservative-progressive for the speed of policy change.

I've been consistently about 20% to the left of middle and 20% to the libertarian side of middle on political compass for about twenty five years - my position and outlook haven't really changed at all since it first came out. But over the past decade or so, I've realized I'm quite decidedly NOT progressive. I'm not opposed to change, but I really don't think radical change without a good understanding of the potential consequences and risks is a good idea. Try small, prove the concept, then scale up.

I'm a fan of Chesterton's fence, and I'm not tearing that sucker down until I'm certain there's not an angry bull on the other side.

 

[smartcooky]

The Jason Arday debacle is a prime example of the Liberal-Progressive mindset in action.

The wokesters in academia uncritically believed this fantasist's outrageous claims (30 marathons in 35 days, appearing on a TV show that aired 20 years before he was born, among a host of other lies and fabrications). They ignored repeated, insistent, evidenced warnings about his credibility and about his plagiarism, and the ease with which he was granted his degree in Critical Race Theory, one of the most Mickey Mouse degrees going. They ignored those warnings because they have become blinded by their own vision - they did not want anything to get in the way of their drive for DEI - Arday was to be their poster child. Well now, it has all come crashing down - the Emperor is indeed naked after all!

Even more serious is that fact that Arday himself set the Police on a journalist who was asking questions about his qualifications, and instead of telling him to wind his head in (as they should have) the Police actually took him seriously. They instructed the journalist not to contact him again... and this wasn't some blogger or podcaster they were talking to, this was Jack Grove, a reporter and science/research policy journalist for Times Higher Education. Asking questions of dubious academics is his ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ job!!

Of course, Met Police Commissioner Sir Mark Rowley and has now admitted they were wrong. He said officers "dropped the ball" and admitted the complaint should have been "screened out earlier on as not requiring investigation". But this is what I have been talking about in the "Behaviour of UK Police" thread. This mess has been made, and Rowley's comments are a clean up job. They didn't learn anything from the Alison Pearson debacle, or the cockup with Graham Linehan, or Harry Miller, or Maxie Allen and Rosalind Levine. It seems they still haven't learned to check first before taking action.

I would hope that this would be a fatal blow to DEI, that this disaster might trigger a period of self-reflection by academia that would eventually see a return to degrees and honors awarded purely on merit... but I'm afraid this wont happen. The mind-virus is too well established in the academic hierarchy - they will see this as a minor setback, and will plough on until the next debacle.

Cambridge is now a laughing stock having committed one of he greatest academic blunders in its history, but I'll bet there are other Jason Ardays out there in places like Oxford, LSE, et al.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

It's audacious to make up a scale and then confidently put yourself on it.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

My parameter for Progressive/Conservative is very simple: do you punch Up or Down?

 

[ahhell]

My parameter for Progressive/Conservative is very simple: do you punch Up or Down?

I don't see how that has anything to do with either conservative or progressive, any more than good people and bad people.

 

[Trausti]

I don't see how that has anything to do with either conservative or progressive, any more than good people and bad people.

The Nazis thought they were punching up. The Commies, too, when they were going after the Kulaks. If you ever want to justify being nasty to another person, just say you're punching up. It excuses all sorts of bad behavior.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Nonsense.
It's very obvious to everyone who is Up and who is Down.
If you need to invoke a complicated CT why the person you and your mob is beating up is actually an End Boss, you kinda know you are just making excuses.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

I would hope that this would be a fatal blow to DEI, that this disaster might trigger a period of self-reflection by academia that would eventually see a return to degrees and honors awarded purely on merit... but I'm afraid this wont happen. The mind-virus is too well established in the academic hierarchy - they will see this as a minor setback, and will plough on until the next debacle.

Is that you, Elon?

 

[Mojo]

We've started this thread with the wrong word. It should have been left or progressive. Americans are the only folks that use liberal to mean left.

I was assuming it meant "not right-wing".

 

[smartcooky]

Is that you, Elon?

No, of course not, but its an apt description of the infection that has struck academia. And how about actual discussion and comment on the subject of post rather than taking rude, stupid pot shots at me.

I have noticed how the lefties in this forum seem to have gone very quiet about this, and have resorted to attacking the messenger rather than having the courage to talk about the uncomfortable subject matter .. but I guess that is what I should expect from an echo-chamber of intellectual cowards.... Unless of course, y'all are just fine with one of the world's great universities granting this lying fantasist a professorship. How on earth did Arday get past the stringent testing, challenging and background checking to be granted a professorship at one of the most prestigious places of higher learning in the world? I'd be ashamed to admit Cambridge as my Alma Mater in the current situation

When was pursing my Aeronautical Engineering degree in the 1980s, Universities were places of scholarship and higher learning, where excellence wasn't just expected, it was demanded!! Sadly, it seems this is no longer the case - looks like any old liar can cheat their way to higher honours.

 

[ahhell]

Nonsense.
It's very obvious to everyone who is Up and who is Down.
If you need to invoke a complicated CT why the person you and your mob is beating up is actually an End Boss, you kinda know you are just making excuses.

The only conspiracy theory here is the notion that everyone agrees on what's good, but some choose to do bad and punch down. I do think that Manicheism is a pretty common part of the mindset among the far left though. Pretty common on the far right too.