Understanding the Liberal Mindset

[42gerg]

“Barack Obama has always believed that same-sex couples should enjoy equal rights under the law, and he will continue to fight for civil unions as president.” (source)

So is there anything legally different between a civil union and marriage? Seem like waste of resources to have two identical things. If they are the same then why not just replace marriage for civil union in the laws. Leave it to the couple to decide whatever cultural ceremony they want to make it marriage.

That was the right moving a step closer to allowing gays to serve openly, their previous stated preference was a total ban on service with the ability to enforce that ban by asking recruits about their sexuality upfront.

So how long was that step supposed to last? 17 years seem like long enough.

Social issues are often resolved in an extralegal manner, although I have to point out that campus speech codes actually do interact with First Amendment law when the campus is owned by the state.

If social issues like these are solved without needing the government to intervene, then why get the government involved now? I won't deny it can be tricky dealing with balancing free speech with the needs of setting expectations for individuals. Unless you think a school shouldn't be able to discipline a student for anything short of a crime, then that line is going to be subjective.

 

[d4m10n]

In my opinion this is often an misinterpretation of the centrists.

We should have a thread about the centrist mindset.

IMO their defining heuristic is that they evaluate issues one at a time based on their own values and goals instead of asking how the issue fits in the polarized debate between progressive reformers and the conservative resistance.

 

[ahhell]

We should have a thread about the centrist mindset.

IMO their defining heuristic is that they evaluate issues one at a time based on their own values and goals instead of asking how the issue fits in the polarized debate between progressive reformers and the conservative resistance.

It would be doomed to failure just like this one.

I think there is an element of small c conservativism to the centrist positions. A lot of "hey wait a minute lets try a little of that first and see how it works out before we go full radical change."

 

[Steve]

What I have learned from this thread is that the right cannot understand the "liberal mindset" because they cannot even define it.

 

[d4m10n]

What I have learned from this thread is that the right cannot understand the "liberal mindset" because they cannot even define it.

Three Core Principles of Liberalism (according to Adrian Wooldridge; Google AI summary fact checked by @d4m10n )

Individualism: Treating the individual as the basic building block of society, focused on self-improvement rather than mere consumerism.

Constraints on Power: Enforcing strict limits on political and private power through constitutions and individual rights.

Skepticism About Ultimate Truths: Rejecting the imposition of collective moral, religious, or ideological dogma, and instead protecting pluralism and open debate.

 

[ahhell]

One of the problems is the American misuse of the term liberalism. Liberal shouldn't be synonymous with left or progressive. It typically isn't outside of the US. Conservativism is more often aligned with the right than not, but they aren't synonymous either.

Three Core Principles of Liberalism (according to Adrian Wooldridge; Google AI summary fact checked by @d4m10n )

Individualism: Treating the individual as the basic building block of society, focused on self-improvement rather than mere consumerism.

Constraints on Power: Enforcing strict limits on political and private power through constitutions and individual rights.

Skepticism About Ultimate Truths: Rejecting the imposition of collective moral, religious, or ideological dogma, and instead protecting pluralism and open debate.

I think only the last one is true of most progressives and leftists more than a bit away from the center. And in the US none are true of folks more than a bit to the right of center. Maybe individualism but that's debatable.

 

[ahhell]

hopefully you could come up with more pointed criticism than that

I can come up with all sorts of criticism of Trump but like I said, why bother? Is there anyone here who actually defends trump? I can join the choir I suppose.

I could criticize from the right, he's clearly not a conservative, he's wrong about trade, he's wrong about economics, he's hopelessly corrupt. General criticism, he's willfully ignorant, his attacks on Venezuela and Iran are clearly illegal and unconstitutional, his immigration policy is a disaster, his treatment of Ukraine, NATO, and pretty much all of the traditional allies of the US has been disgraceful. I've said all of that before, some folks aren't happy unless that is all that is said it seems.

 

[dirtywick]

well i also consider myself a centrist, and to me there's no more important thing in the world than getting that demented sex trafficking con man traitor out of office as quickly as possible before there's nothing left to steal and he's started world war 3. the president is sleeping in public and babbling nonsense and starting then losing wars and just blatantly and openly corrupt. and it's troublesome to me that conservatives and many of my fellow centrists would rather just, i guess, ignore the whole situation and tacitly allow it to continue, or even worse just kind of pick apart the left or complain that's all that's ever talked about.

i kind of think people do need to join the choir and should bother, the situation is beyond ◊◊◊◊◊◊ up.

 

[d4m10n]

well i also consider myself a centrist, and to me there's no more important thing in the world than getting that demented sex trafficking con man traitor out of office as quickly as possible before there's nothing left to steal and he's started world war 3.

As a liberal (in the sense given at #1,165) I have to agree, but I don't think you need to be left-of-center to see Trump as a threat to the rules-based world order in general and the American experiment in particular.

 

[dirtywick]

As a liberal (in the sense given at #1,165) I have to agree, but I don't think you need to be left-of-center to see Trump as a threat to the rules-based world order in general and the American experiment in particular.

yeah but this is all the context that it wasn't so long ago that they were being called deranged for calling him a threat

i don't even think it was that long ago one of my fellow centrists was telling me jan 6 was a hoax. so you might be suprised. for me, when people complain about centrists just being right wingers hiding in plain sight, i don't lump myself in with those centrists and get offended on their behalf. i know exactly what they mean when they say that, and i largely agree with the sentiment that they are out there and that they are the worst

 

[jt512]

Three Core Principles of Liberalism (according to Adrian Wooldridge; Google AI summary fact checked by @d4m10n )

Individualism: Treating the individual as the basic building block of society, focused on self-improvement rather than mere consumerism.

Constraints on Power: Enforcing strict limits on political and private power through constitutions and individual rights.

Skepticism About Ultimate Truths: Rejecting the imposition of collective moral, religious, or ideological dogma, and instead protecting pluralism and open debate.

Uh oh! Newsflash! Progressives aren't liberal!

In fact, progressives are anti-liberal.

 

[jt512]

I can come up with all sorts of criticism of Trump but like I said, why bother? Is there anyone here who actually defends trump? I can join the choir I suppose.

I could defend Trump (even praise him) on Israel, Iran, combating campus antisemitism, combating DEI ideology, and protecting women in sports.

 

[Trausti]

I could defend Trump (even praise him) on Israel, Iran, combating campus antisemitism, combating DEI ideology, and protecting women in sports.

Yeah. I don't really care for Trump the person, but I do like his policies.

 

[d4m10n]

Not every thread has to be about Trump.

 

[jt512]

Not every thread has to be about Trump.

[citation needed]

 

[dirtywick]

Not every thread has to be about Trump.

likely to see some of that if you keep reading these left vs right political opinion threads where he's guaranteed to be brought up.

 

[d4m10n]

likely to see some of that if you keep reading these left vs right political opinion threads where he's guaranteed to be brought up.

I know, but how can his existence possibly clarify the liberal mindset? Whether you mean what I do by liberalism or whatever the OP meant by it, Trump doesn't help us illustrate it except by exception.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

You wouldn't have to be Left Wing if you had the sense to see in advance Trump for what he is and the guts to resist him.
But none of the Centrist/Right Wingers had that after the Nomination.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

Here's the thing, how would we know if it has anything to do with this thread or includes a young Hitchens without someone who has watched it tell us that? All I see is a screen capture of some guy I don't recognize (now that you mention it, he does look like a young Hitchens might if I knew what Hitchens looked like before 40 years of hard drinking.)

Personal pet peeve and I know I'm not alone. Posting a video or podcast with nothing more than a cryptic, "what about this" or "check this out". As noted by plague, especially peeving when it's an hour long. Give folks a reason to watch with a brief explanation of what it might relate. For all we know its a long boring rickroll.

The thumbnail I'm seeing says "Christopher Hitchins, Columnist: The Nation" at the bottom.

ETA: But as a principal I agree, tell me why I should watch it.

 

[ahhell]

@not all centrists. Which is the thing, it really seems as though some folks don't differentiate between anyone that doesn't agree with them. Trump

The thumbnail I'm seeing says "Christopher Hitchins, Columnist: The Nation" at the bottom.

ETA: But as a principal I agree, tell me why I should watch it.

The thumbnail I see cuts off the bottom. I only see that its a very old episode of the firing line and picture of Hitchens so young I didn't recognize him.