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Understanding the Liberal Mindset

Racist, sexist garbage.

Clanker sludge.

More clanker sludge.

@dann , did you even notice that Grok thinks socialism and Marxism are the same thing, and that revolutionary communists are Marxists? Or did that part seem as normal to you as the racism and sexism on display in your previous post?
 
The Great Zaganza said:
Do you think National Socialism was a kind of Socialism?
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State-directed private enterprise seems pretty socialist to me.

ETA: Do you think revolutionary communists are Marxists?


Really, what socialists and fascists have in common is a desire to control the means of production. They can be somewhat relaxed about ownership of the means of production, as long as they have control. So you can still pander to the capitalists. As long as they're content to be satraps of industry, in the service of the state, they can still be allowed to "own" their satrapies.

What distinguishes the modern European socialist from the early 20th century fascist is a matter of degree on a spectrum, not a binary choice between discrete ideologies. What distinguished the German communist from the German national socialist was a similar matter of degree, along the same spectrum.
 
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theprestige said:
State-directed private enterprise seems pretty socialist to me.

ETA: Do you think revolutionary communists are Marxists?


Really, what socialists and fascists have in common is a desire to control the means of production. They can be somewhat relaxed about ownership of the means of production, as long as they have control. So you can still pander to the capitalists. As long as they're content to be satraps of industry, in the service of the state, they can still be allowed to "own" their satrapies.

What distinguishes the modern European socialist from the early 20th century fascist is a matter of degree on a spectrum, not a binary choice between discrete ideologies. What distinguished the German communist from the German national socialist was a similar matter of degree, along the same spectrum.
Click to expand...
 
The Great Zaganza said:
In other words, the US world war 2 economy was socialist, got it
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Well, yes. I almost put in two more paragraphs about that exact thing. About how it is sometimes necessary to socialize the means of production temporarily, to meet some collective threat, such as in wartime. This is why politicians - especially socialists - like to frame their preferred policies as a matter of war. War on drugs. War on poverty. Etc. The state must always control the means of production, for the greater good, because the greater good is always facing some existential crisis that requires collectivization. That's another thing fascists and socialists have in common: Finding rationalizations for ongoing state direction of industry and commerce.

Remember our earlier conversation, about how my city and county governments won't let housing developers build much-needed housing? That they're only allowed to develop at the direction of the local government? Fascism? Socialism? Potato, potato. And of course the local government cold sucks at directing the development of much-needed housing, resulting in a dystopic wasteland rather than a thriving local economy. A classic hallmark of full-blown (i.e., revolutionary communist) socialism. Probably a hallmark of fascism, too, since it's towards the same end of the same spectrum.
 
You are mixing up a War Economy and a Peace Economy.
In a War Economy, every System becomes State Directed or Controlled.
So that can't be what distinguishes Socialism from other systems.

I can give you the cheat sheet answer:
In Socialism, Unions are supported and protected.
In Capitalism, they are not.
In Communism and National Socialism, they are actively suppressed.

That's what tells you that Hitler never allowed for Socialism
 
The Great Zaganza said:
You are mixing up a War Economy and a Peace Economy.
In a War Economy, every System becomes State Directed or Controlled.
So that can't be what distinguishes Socialism from other systems.

I can give you the cheat sheet answer:
In Socialism, Unions are supported and protected.
In Capitalism, they are not.
In Communism and National Socialism, they are actively suppressed.

That's what tells you that Hitler never allowed for Socialism
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It's funny when conservatives say a government directed economy can't work. But then ignore WW2 and what it did for America. And there isn't anything more useless than defense spending.

They put almost every one to work. The put manufacturing into overdrive. They addressed problems and solved them. They didn't stop trying to address the problems because their first attempts may have been inefficient or ineffective. They didn't throw up their hands and give up.
 
acbytesla said:
It's funny when conservatives say a government directed economy can't work. But then ignore WW2 and what it did for America. And there isn't anything more useless than defense spending.

They put almost every one to work. The put manufacturing into overdrive. They addressed problems and solved them. They didn't stop trying to address the problems because their first attempts may have been inefficient or ineffective. They didn't throw up their hands and give up.
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I dunno what you're going for here. The government then made massive spending outlays to increase industrial production. But it didn't direct the economy. It didn't decide how many shoes or what toys to make. The market didn't go away.
 
I have reached the point of mistrusting ALL political ideologies, simply because they are all so damn dogmatic and really do have a If the facts are our ideology clash, the facts must be disposed of.
I also hate the double standard, where if somebody of the other ideology does something bad is it totally evil, but if somebody on my side does it is is somehow excusable or even admiriable.
And the worst thing about people with ideological blinders on is they have no idea they are wearing them.
In other words, religion has nothing on political ideologies when it comes to making people behave stupidly.
 
Trausti said:
I dunno what you're going for here. The government then made massive spending outlays to increase industrial production. But it didn't direct the economy. It didn't decide how many shoes or what toys to make. The market didn't go away.
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You have no idea, do you?
What else is Directing the Economy but "you work for us or you don't work?
 
Trausti said:
I dunno what you're going for here. The government then made massive spending outlays to increase industrial production. But it didn't direct the economy. It didn't decide how many shoes or what toys to make. The market didn't go away.
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Of course it did. It rationed all kinds of things and spent a lot of money building weapons. Why can't the government do the same to address issues like housing, infrastructure and manufacturing? What's amazing is the government wasn't spending funds on capital goods that pay society back.
 
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