unassisited childbirth-what do you think?

The reason laboring in a hospital evokes fear of predators is because obstetricians act like predators.

Yes, women need medical supervision during labor. But the current practice of obstetrics is not providing medical supervision. It's only making things worse. And obstetricians are hoarding the medical knowledge and technology, so midwives and doulas improvise with non-scientific principles, again making things worse.

Basically the only sensible option available now is a private LDR room, with doctors on call in case something goes wrong.
 
Collin Merenoff said:
The reason laboring in a hospital evokes fear of predators is because obstetricians act like predators.

Yes, women need medical supervision during labor. But the current practice of obstetrics is not providing medical supervision. It's only making things worse. And obstetricians are hoarding the medical knowledge and technology, so midwives and doulas improvise with non-scientific principles, again making things worse.
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Aside from your perception of obstetricians being quite funny, I think those statements are very unfair to midwives and doulas. There may be a tendency to bring some superfluous woo into the process, but otherwise they seem to access and use the same medical knowledge as physicians (without the training for advanced interventions).

Basically the only sensible option available now is a private LDR room, with doctors on call in case something goes wrong.
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That sounds about right.

Linda
 
Childbirth without a doctor present is dangerous because the woman might hemmorrage and bleed to death if she has the child alone. You can have natural childbirth but don't do it at home.
 
Exactly.

If hospitals provide real care for the patient and her baby in a non-threatening environment, childbirth can feel natural there too.
 
I don't recall pregnancy causing any new "rush" of intellectual knowledge about giving birth. Unless it was all those books I read.

I certainly didn't feel any intuitive need to squat down and pop that baby out on my own. My intuition told me to order that epidural!
 
If a fetal monitor is to be considered a real monitoring device -- rather than an oracle like Hubbard's E Meter -- then it should have a display easily readable by the average patient. If the interpretation of the monitoring data is so esoteric that it's impossible to program such a display even with state-of-the-art AI techniques, then it certainly wouldn't be considered a science by Randi's standards.
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This is one of the stupidest things I've ever read. You are not a doctor. You will never understand the read out off of a fetal monitor. A DOCTOR IS THE ONLY PERSON WHO SHOULD INTERPRET THE RESULTS. NO AI IS CAPABLE OF INTERPRETING THE RESULTS FLAWLESSLY. PEOPLE HAVE DIED BECAUSE OF THIS ASSUMPTION. REPEAT PEOPLE HAVE DIED.
 
The fetal monitor can have one panel for the patient, and another for the doctor. If you don't believe the patient can do anything about her panel, why are you so afraid of it?

No AI can read anything flawlessly. No person can read anything flawlessly either. But an AI doesn't have emotions to cloud its judgment.

Claiming "PEOPLE HAVE DIED" in all capitals strikes me as confirming my suspicion of the religious zeal of obstetrics.

If any explanation of how to read a fetal monitor has been provided outside of an obstetrics course, let me know. Otherwise, why not?
 
If any explanation of how to read a fetal monitor has been provided outside of an obstetrics course, let me know. Otherwise, why not?
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Scratch that. I was wrong. You can buy fetal heart monitors for home. I have no clue how useful listening to your babies heart beat is. There doesn't seem to be much to fetal heart monitors for me to wonder why it's such a mysterious device.
 
Don't know what y'all are going on about. They always had the monitor turned so that I could see it when labouring. And even though I knew how to read it, making it my responsibility was pretty much the last thing on my mind at the time. Why you think it should be directed towards the most inexperienced, unknowledgeable and distracted person in the room is beyond me.

Linda
 
I am talking about the fetal monitor being directed in two ways, one panel for the patient and one panel for the doctor.

You have more experience and knowledge than anyone else about the idiosyncrasies of your own body. And looking at the fetal monitor is supposed to be an evaluation, not a distraction.
 
Collin Merenoff said:
I am talking about the fetal monitor being directed in two ways, one panel for the patient and one panel for the doctor.
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It's just seems superfluous and unnecessary. If you're keen on looking at the monitor, you already can.

You have more experience and knowledge than anyone else about the idiosyncrasies of your own body.
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What's that got to do with reading and understanding a fetal monitor?

And looking at the fetal monitor is supposed to be an evaluation, not a distraction.
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Trust me. It's not the monitor that's a distraction.

Linda
 
It just seems so old-fashioned that women think it's okay to feel helpless and subservient about childbirth. When you go to a hospital, you and your baby are supposed to be customers, not demonstrations.
 
Collin Merenoff said:
It just seems so old-fashioned that women think it's okay to feel helpless and subservient about childbirth. When you go to a hospital, you and your baby are supposed to be customers, not demonstrations.
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Why are you under the impression that that's how they feel?

Linda
 
Because it seems that most of the women who complain about the injustices of obstetrics are new-agers. What is it about the current practice of obstetrics that is so satisfying that the average rational woman doesn't want to change it?

And if you say it's best for you and your baby, I can expect you to justify your belief, as is customary on JREF.
 
Collin Merenoff said:
Because it seems that most of the women who complain about the injustices of obstetrics are new-agers. What is it about the current practice of obstetrics that is so satisfying that the average rational woman doesn't want to change it?

And if you say it's best for you and your baby, I can expect you to justify your belief, as is customary on JREF.
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I can't tell what it is that you want me to justify. That there isn't some vast conspiracy of feral obstetricians keeping women helpless and subservient?

ETA: I can tell you that what's best for me is minor compared to what's best for my baby.

Linda
 
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Collin Merenoff said:
It just seems so old-fashioned that women think it's okay to feel helpless and subservient about childbirth.
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I think this is where the woo comes in: this seems to be an issue related to maintaining an illusion of control over the process.
 
Perpetuating a ritual for fear of change is not a "conspiracy". It's just a less rational side of human nature. Please don't play the word card.

Specifically, why do you believe what's best for your baby is exactly what obstetricians say is best for your baby, including things like an IV and stirrups?
 
Collin Merenoff said:
Specifically, why do you believe what's best for your baby is exactly what obstetricians say is best for your baby, including things like an IV and stirrups?
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I think that it's most useful to use evidence for guidance and that obstetricians do that. I haven't the foggiest idea what you think "perpetuating a ritual for fear of change" refers to.

Linda
 
I don't see how obstetrics is being guided by evidence. What evidence is there that subjecting the patient to even more pain than what is already one of the world's worst pains is beneficial for her baby?

It is not a conspiracy that I'm complaining about. It is, you might say, a lack of conspiracy. Nobody is seriously considering a way to make obstetrics feel less barbaric for the patient. It's as if they think there's only so much well-being to go around, and it's unfair for the patient to steal it from her baby.

If you want to feel as if you're giving up your orgone or something so your baby can receive it, that's your business. But I don't believe in those things.
 
Collin Merenoff said:
I don't see how obstetrics is being guided by evidence. What evidence is there that subjecting the patient to even more pain than what is already one of the world's worst pains is beneficial for her baby?
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What are you talking about?

It is not a conspiracy that I'm complaining about. It is, you might say, a lack of conspiracy. Nobody is seriously considering a way to make obstetrics feel less barbaric for the patient. It's as if they think there's only so much well-being to go around, and it's unfair for the patient to steal it from her baby.
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What gives you the impression that that's the situation?

If you want to feel as if you're giving up your orgone or something so your baby can receive it, that's your business. But I don't believe in those things.
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That's not what I said.

Linda
 
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