unassisited childbirth-what do you think?

Unnatural, yes.

So is eating your meat cooked, having a better than 50/50 chance of seeing your second birthday, and still having all your teeth at age 20.


That's exactly my point. Everything is natural in that there is no "supernatural" and "unnatural" is really a meaningless term.


Undesirable? Lemme know how many teeth you want me to pull out, and we'll talk.

Not sure what you mean here. I think we agree but I'm not sure. :)
 
And it took "medical intervention" with my "natural" state to find that out. How much modern medicine is acceptable in an "unassissted" birth? Everything but the doctor?

I think you have confused me with someone advocating unassisted births. Do I have a sign on my forehead reading "Mad, hippy, earth-mother"? If you read my posts again, you will find that I explicitly said that was something I didn't support.

I just think that home births enable a state where interventions are less needed as I think there is a fair amount of iatriogenically created problems in labour. All women should have regular antenatal check ups to assess their health and the level of risk. If deciding to birth at home, they should have access to those methods of pain relief that are safe to use and administer at home by a midwife. If those methods of pain relief are not enough, the woman should be given the opportunity to go to hospital where she can get a greater range of pain relief. Pretty much anything modern medicine has to offer is acceptable for any birth, it is just a question of whether a mother wants to avail herself of it, or whether it is necessary.
 
I suspect he intended the phrase "only midwives" to imply "midwives and not others". It is the more natural reading of the phrase.

I had no doubt he posted positive things about midwives. But language we use nonetheless speaks unintended messages.

What are all the possibilities "just a midwife" could imply? Change that to "only a midwife" and see if you cannot apply the same possible meanings.

I didn't post this to be critical, like I said it was obviously a positive post. I posted it to promote PR for nurses and nurse practitioners.
 
However illogical it may seem to you, there is some truth at least in the first portion of the argument. Having lots of people around you that you don't know, and lots of high tech equipment, etc leads to some women feeling inhibited which can slow labour and cause complications, and they may feel like they can't move around in ways that help them to cope with the pain, so are more likely to need pain relief. And once you have one intervention, you are more likely to need another. For example if you choose an epidural, you are more likely to need an instrumental delivery or a C-section.

Imagine you and your partner are having sex in private. Now imagine you are trying to have sex while a man is hovering with a machine that will give you a guaranteed orgasm, just in case you can't manage it yourselves. Would that inhibit the natural process at all, do you think?
A lot of claims here and no evidence to support it. Care to rectify that situation?
 
That's not the norm - I knew one woman whose labour lasted 40 minutes from first contraction to final push, but plenty of my friends have had 12-and 24-hour labours; my four labours were all between 8 and 12 hours.
And I was glad to be giving birth in hospitals. Again, several friends of mine have had wonderful home births. But they also had easy, uncomplicated labours. And other friends have had good hospital births.
It's all about choice.
Or 57 hours, speaking from experience. I was in labor from Friday night until Monday afternoon. None of the weekend doctors did anything to speed things along. My regular OBGYN finally did on Monday.

I could have used a lot more of that 'unnatural' intervention, if you want my opinion.
 
For some reason it seems that it is ok to assume that hospital births are safer despite the lack of evidence for this - but if you are pro home birth, you have to have cast iron evidence. From a cochrane review summary:
It's annoying you couldn't bother with a link to that quote.

For your convenience, Home vs Hospital Birth and more importantly so we can see the rest of what they had to say rather than a snippet. The problem here is the review is for multiple countries. A country where most births occur at home would naturally have more resources for home births. You cannot compare countries so easily.

There are advantages and disadvantages for both choices and one size simply does not fit all. Which is what I read in your link in post 73. There are mixed reviews cited.

I await your response to post 84 before deciding if you are a, "Mad, hippy, earth-mother" or not. ;)
 
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It's annoying you couldn't bother with a link to that quote.

For your convenience, Home vs Hospital Birth and more importantly so we can see the rest of what they had to say rather than a snippet. The problem here is the review is for multiple countries. A country where most births occur at home would naturally have more resources for home births. You cannot compare countries so easily.

I feel obliged to point out that that Cochrane review is on a single trial of 11 women. No information on safety can be extracted from it. It is so underpowered that a 10-fold increase in mortality could easily be missed, for example. I'm not sure why anyone would even bring it up for discussion.

Linda
 
I was trying to figure that out, Linda. Does it say that was the only study or that study didn't meet the criteria? It seemed bizarre they would even call that a meta-analysis.

I guess I was just reluctant to believe what it said.
Main results

One study involving 11 women was included. The trial was of reasonable quality, but was too small to be able to draw conclusions.
Authors' conclusions

There is no strong evidence to favour either planned hospital birth or planned home birth for low-risk pregnant women.
But comparing that to the following, it appears one puny study was it. Might as well not even bother with the conclusions.


Here's the nearest equivalent review, Home-like versus conventional institutional settings for birth
Home-like institutional birth settings reduce the chances of medical interventions and increase maternal satisfaction, but it is important to watch for signs of complications

Home-like birth settings are intended for women who prefer to avoid medical intervention during labour and birth, but who either do not wish or cannot have a home birth. The results of six trials suggest modest benefits, including decreased medical intervention and higher rates of spontaneous vaginal birth, breastfeeding, and maternal satisfaction. However, there may be an added risk of perinatal mortality.

[snip]

Main results

Six trials involving 8677 women were included. No trials of freestanding birth centres were found. Between 29% and 67% of women allocated to home-like settings were transferred to standard care before or during labour. Allocation to a home-like setting significantly increased the likelihood of: no intrapartum analgesia/anaesthesia (four trials; n = 6703; relative risk (RR) 1.19, 95% confidence interval (CI) 1.01 to 1.40), spontaneous vaginal birth (five trials; n = 8529; RR 1.03, 95% CI 1.01 to 1.06), vaginal/perineal tears (four trials; n = 8415; RR 1.08, 95% CI 1.03 to 1.13), preference for the same setting the next time (one trial; n = 1230; RR 1.81, 95% CI 1.65 to 1.98), satisfaction with intrapartum care (one trial; n = 2844; RR 1.14, 95% CI 1.07 to 1.21), and breastfeeding initiation (two trials; n = 1431; RR 1.05, 95% CI 1.02 to 1.09) and continuation to six to eight weeks (two trials; n = 1431; RR 1.06, 95% CI 1.02 to 1.10). Allocation to a home-like setting decreased the likelihood of episiotomy (five trials; n = 8529; RR 0.85, 95% CI 0.74 to 0.99). There was a trend towards higher perinatal mortality in the home-like setting (five trials; n = 8529; RR 1.83, 95% CI 0.99 to 3.38). No firm conclusions could be drawn regarding the effects of staffing or organizational models.
Authors' conclusions

When compared to conventional institutional settings, home-like settings for childbirth are associated with modest benefits, including reduced medical interventions and increased maternal satisfaction. Caregivers and clients should be vigilant for signs of complications.
 
baby with chickenpox, no time to reply with anything of substance. Hopefully will have time to come back to it when the wee one is better.
 
What do you think about unassisted childbirth? I believe that it may be what's right for some mothers, and may not be for others. Yet some websites devoted to it have some statements like this that ring alarm bells in my head.



I found this on a site, yet can't remember the link at the moment.

What's your opinion on it?

I'm all for it. We need to be doing something to 'select' for rational and intelligent.
 
baby with chickenpox, no time to reply with anything of substance. Hopefully will have time to come back to it when the wee one is better.
If baby is old enough for acyclovir or similar antiviral drug, modern medicine does save lives and ease suffering as well as decrease viral shedding.

I hope you aren't one of those anti-vaxers. If you are, I will have to judge you as that "misguided" Earth-mother. (I remind you hippies were not opposed to drugs. ;) )

Treatment
1. Scratching the blisters may cause them to become infected. Therefore, keep fingernails trimmed short. Calamine lotion and Aveeno (oatmeal) baths may help relieve some of the itching. Do not use aspirin or aspirin-containing products to relieve your child's fever. The use of aspirin has been associated with development of Reye syndrome (a severe disease affecting all organs, but most seriously affecting the liver and brain, that may cause death). Use non aspirin medications such as acetaminophen (commonly known as Tylenol®).

2. Your health care provider will advise you on options for treatment. Acyclovir (a medicine that works against herpes viruses) is recommended for persons who are more likely to develop serious disease including persons with chronic skin or lung disease, otherwise healthy individuals 13 years of age or older, and those persons receiving steroid therapy. In order for acyclovir to be effective it must be administered within 24 hours of the onset of the chickenpox rash. Persons with weakened immune systems from disease or medication should contact their doctor immediately if they are exposed to or develop chickenpox. If you are pregnant and are either exposed to, or develop chickenpox, you should immediately discuss prevention and treatment options with your doctor.
I am more liberal with prescribing acyclovir than the CDC in this case. It has been on the market for a couple decades and has turned out to be an extremely safe drug.

Prescribing information
It comes in a liquid and can be used in kids 2 years old or more. And, it is used in this age group since there are immunosuppressed kids it is given to.
Treatment of Chickenpox

Children (2 years of age and older): 20 mg/kg per dose orally 4 times daily (80 mg/kg/day) for 5 days. Children over 40 kg should receive the adult dose for chickenpox.

Adults and Children over 40 kg: 800 mg 4 times daily for 5 days.

Intravenous ZOVIRAX is indicated for the treatment of varicella-zoster infections in immunocompromised patients.

When therapy is indicated, it should be initiated at the earliest sign or symptom of chickenpox. There is no information about the efficacy of therapy initiated more than 24 hours after onset of signs and symptoms.
 
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Is chicken pox particularly dangerous? Just curious, because practically everyone I've ever known has had it at some time or other (usually during childhood) and none of them is suffering any after effects, or death even.
 
A few kids die from it every year. Sometimes from secondary infections, sometimes the virus infects the lungs or brain. Newborns whose mothers are not immune have very severe disease if they get it (no maternal antibody). And from about the age of 12 on the risk begins climbing so that adults have a greater risk of very severe disease.

When everyone gets it and only a couple deaths occur, it appears harmless. But if one of those couple deaths affect you personally, it's devastating.

There's a report out this month of several deaths in otherwise healthy kids from bacterial pneumonia they got with the flu. If that was your kid and you didn't get them a flu shot, you'd feel terrible.

So you look at the risk of the drug or vaccine. If it is less than the risk from the disease, take the drug or vaccine, even if both are very low risk overall.

Varicella deaths, adults, 1997, USA

Pink Book, varacella
Rare complications of varicella include aseptic meningitis, transverse myelitis, Guillain-Barré syndrome, thrombocytopenia, hemorrhagic varicella, purpura fulminans, glomerulonephritis, myocarditis, arthritis, orchitis, uveitis, iritis, and hepatitis. In the prevaccine era, approximately 11,000 persons with varicella required hospitalization each year. Hospitalization rates were approximately 2–3 per 1,000 cases among healthy children and 8 per 1,000 cases among adults. Death occurred in approximately 1 in 60,000 cases. From 1990 through 1996, an average of 103 deaths from varicella were reported each year. Most deaths occur in immunocompetent children and adults. Since 1996, the number of hospitalizations and deaths from varicella has declined more than 90%.

The risk of complications from varicella varies with age. Complications are infrequent among healthy children. They occur much more frequently in persons older than 15 years of age and infants younger than 1 year of age. For instance, among children 1–14 years of age, the fatality rate of varicella is approximately 1 per 100,000 cases, among persons 15–19 years, it is 2.7 per 100,000 cases, and among adults 30–49 years of age, 25.2 per 100,000 cases. Adults account for only 5% of reported cases of varicella but approximately 35% of mortality.
There is also a bar graph showing the fatality rate by age group.


Severe Methicillin-Resistant Staphylococcus aureus Community-Acquired Pneumonia Associated with Influenza --- Louisiana and Georgia, December 2006--January 2007
 
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First of all he is only 8 months (and currently very miserable). We don't currently vaccinate for chickenpox in the uk - most people get it as children, and as you said, complications are extremely rare in children.Most gps wouldn't treat it with anything other than symptom relief (paracetamol, calamine, antihistamine in older children) unless there were complications. BTW baking soda in the bath is good for relieving itching.

If varicella was added to the current immunisation schedule, I would give it to my kids.

I am most definitely NOT anti vaccination. Vaccinations save very many lives, and the propaganda put about by the anti vax lot, and the repeated media scares whipped out of nothing are killers. There is an awful lot of conclusive evidence about vaccination, whereas our debate about homebirth is really a debate centred on a lack of evidence. Its an entirely different thing.
 
That's right in line with my practice as well, Yaffle, and I wish you the best with your little one.

Acyclovir is certainly well tolerated (even in infants) and I'd have a low threshold to use it if the child was showing signs of complication, had lesions in the eye or oropharynx, or was high risk (steroid use, immunosuppression, moderate to severe eczema, etc). I do worry about overly liberal use inducing resistance in the community though.

But we digress... :)
 
Now I didn't know that about eczema. My wee one has eczema but it is really only triggered to any great extent by his milk protein allergy/intolerence. What are the risks? (I know I shouldn't be using this forum for medical advice...)

PS I think the reason for them not vaccinating here in the uk is the risk of increased shingles cases until coverage became near universal. Is there any evidence of increased shingles in the US since the vaccine was brought in?

Sorry for the thread derail by the way.
 
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Viral resistance with acyclovir has been minimal and with HSV, resistant strains have coincidentally been attenuated as well. So I wouldn't be as concerned about the resistance, Jal.

Chicken pox is a little more dangerous in kids under a year. Personally, I'd at least ask the doctor and mention the age and eczema. Kids with eczema tend to get many more 'pox'. I find a lot of docs simple unaware of the benefits of acyclovir both for shingles and for chicken pox.

But if you don't use an antiviral drug, do keep in mind that even with a higher risk situation with chicken pox, the numbers of kids with serious outcomes are still extremely low. And there is an intravenous form of acyclovir that can be used for a very ill patient. So it's sort of something you can fall back on if your child was the one in a million serious case.

If your doctor agrees however, acyclovir will ease the itching and misery a lot quicker than without it. But with babies you can put little socks on their hands so that can't scratch. They might cry and be fussy, but infection risk is lower than with a toddler or older kid who you can't stop from scratching and infecting the lesions.
 
Obstetricians claim that childbirth is neither sexual nor spiritual. Doulas claim that childbirth is both sexual and spiritual. To see how big a strawman this is, consider the following:

Sexuality seeks the enjoyment preferred by each individual. Spirituality seeks what authorities define to be enjoyable.​

Sexuality draws on the real power of one's own muscles. Spirituality draws on the imaginary power of a deity.​

Sexuality produces a precise awareness of one's body in space and time. Spirituality makes one feel as if space and time don't even exist.​

Thus it could well be said that sexuality and spirituality are opposite emotions, and thus both obstetricians and doulas are wrong about the emotional significance of childbirth.

Although most women don't feel sexual during childbirth, it's clear that if sexuality and spirituality are considered mutex, sexuality as an objective characterization of childbirth is much more amenable to scientific consideration of how to deal with it medically.

The increase use of interventions in obstetrics has been called "fearmongering", but I have yet to see any study showing that there isn't such an increase. Is the implication that intervention is not something to be feared?

Obstetricians claim that their practice is undoubtably the best for the baby, and that any reform of it will put the baby's life and health at risk. The parallel with what religious leaders claim about their congregants' immortal souls is hard to miss. They are both ways to make people feel that it's evil to question dogma.

If a fetal monitor is to be considered a real monitoring device -- rather than an oracle like Hubbard's E Meter -- then it should have a display easily readable by the average patient. If the interpretation of the monitoring data is so esoteric that it's impossible to program such a display even with state-of-the-art AI techniques, then it certainly wouldn't be considered a science by Randi's standards.

It's commonly assumed that emotions and expectations have an influence over things like heartbeat, digestion, and sexual arousal. And language has many words and phrases implying such a connection. Yet obstetricians claim that childbirth is completely independent of such influence. There is the assumption that pushing is the only thing a patient can do about the progress of childbirth, and therefore that during the first stage she is helpless.

Suppose a reasonable definition were developed, by some mathematical formula, of a fraction of fetal distress, and this were displayed to the patient. If the patient had been educated about the difference between the first and second stages, there would be the possibility that her first stage would proceed fast enough to avoid fetal distress. If she doesn't seem to be capable of that, then intervention would occur.

There is a Freudian implication of a performance criterion in this idea, but sometimes a responsibility is just a responsibility, considering that the patient is bringing a life into the world.
 
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In the pre-modern era death for both mother and child was quite common, not using modern facilities and expert care is both idiotic and irresponsible (that is of course if you can get those services).

I suppose they would also say that It's better to be your own dentist too.

What do you think about unassisted childbirth? I believe that it may be what's right for some mothers, and may not be for others. Yet some websites devoted to it have some statements like this that ring alarm bells in my head.



I found this on a site, yet can't remember the link at the moment.

What's your opinion on it?
 
"Animals intuitively understand this concept. This is why they seek seclusion in labor. They "know" that when a birth is interfered with, the labor may stop or the baby may die."

More likely animals that do not seek seclusion in labour are vulnerable to predators. Darwinism in action.


"Mother nature usually takes over at this point"

Undeniable, but undesirable. Lots of dead kittens are testament to that.

And most animals aren't bipedal and have such a hard time delivering babies with large heads like we do. That's a big part of why child birth is so hard on us humans. We are fortunate our big heads have helped us figure out ways to make child birth less painful and deadly for us. I hate it when they compare us to other animals.
 
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