Ukraine sniping problem...

[LSSBB]

What's obvious is obvious.

Moving on then, to the evidence. Anyone who wants to engage their eyes, for reference:
Scene map
41-minute video (filmed roving amongst events - main massacre sequence is about 12:00-20:00, and sporadically thereafter)
2.5 minute video (filmed from the hotel)
A list of analysis videos

Reports say the hotel Ukraine was generally taken over by the protesters/insurgents on the 18th. They had their field clinic there on the 20th, and "armed protesters" were in charge of security, at one point going room to room "looking for snipers." (these background details still need added to and organized to be more clear, but that's a good reading thus far). Any sniper shots fired by anyone not invited in by them would have a pretty narrow room to operate. It's possible, but a problematic notion.

There was a BBC news report, filmed on the 20th but only released a week later, which is interesting (we'll see why). In this, BBC reporter Gabriel Gatehouse films the aftermath of the mid-day sniper massacre by the Ukraine Hotel, no clues to that. Some reports though said that was from the hotel. But later in the day, just after sunset it seems, the BBC team came "under sniper fire" from the hotel. Gatehouse saw which window, and that the shooter was "wearing one of the protesters green helmets." About an hour later it was a Sky News reporter who had more protesters come to their room, looking for the/a sniper. The room he was in was identified. He must have escaped that room, and they probably never did find him.

Okay, report not filed yet, Gatehouse comes with British forensic experts and opp. activists on the 24th to get their best overall reading of where the snipers were in Kiev, analyzing supposed bullet holes and such. Report aired the 25th.. Four positions identified - the National bank, balcony - the Bankova Vultysya tower - a roadblock between and just north of the two - #4 unclear, either the National Bank roof, or they mean the October Palace, which was of course vacated of Berkut and taken over by insurgents just before the sniper massacre, so let's hope not.

Here's video of, I believe, three Berkut vacating that very area under gunfire, and another person following, aiming a rifle at them. Just minutes before the victims were sent in and the massacre started.

They didn't once in this early but supp. comprehensive look say anything about the hotel, except that there was shooting towards it. Then he released his report with a green-helmet "sniper" in the hotel.

Then and more so now, people started realizing the hotel is the main place that matters. That's where the well-documented brutal stuff happened (see analysis videos, above - doesn't the overall direction suggest the west half of the hotel, and only slightly above the victims? It's one a steep slope behind so ground = maybe 3rd floor). On the 5th, as the Paet-Ashton call was published, the Interior Ministry says it's got three firing locations identified for this "third force" - the National Bank (there were casings on the roof!), the "house of Chimeras" (an official residence next to Y's pres. admin. building) and ... of course the hotel. (see AP March 7)

So there's another clue. The role of the hotel sniper(s) shifting all over like that suggests conflicting attempts to limit our awareness. When it became clear there might be serious attention, the cut short that stupid game of denying the hotel, and start a new one of having sooper-seekrit Russian snipers in there. Or that's my suspicion anyway.

Any shells, fingerprints, confessions, positive ID, orders?

 

[Caustic Logic]

There was never a Russian invasion of Crimea. There was a Russian deployment of troops that were already in Crimea.

When de-rails collide, Magz must be near.

Joey, maybe your reading is better

Paet: vague stuff. haha.

ETA: If you've heard it, why did you complain that we're relying on a "translation?" Oh, you meant transcription I guess. It's totally accurate. Oh, he might've meant something other than he says. Sure, one or another of those must make this all irrelevant.

 

[Caustic Logic]

What the hell are you even talking about? The deal was struck, impeachment proceedings were started, and then Yanukovich fled.

You're talking about a different deal. I'm talking about the relevant one on the 20th, calling for December elections, etc. The snipers and the protesters, together, rescinded that.

Any shells, fingerprints, confessions, positive ID, orders?

Anything to say on the stuff you just ignored, apparently?

 

[Caustic Logic]

Ah, we've been moved. I don't do CT forum threads. What a stupid waste of time this was. Thanks for all the "skepticism," folks.

 

[LSSBB]

You're talking about a different deal. I'm talking about the relevant one on the 20th, calling for December elections, etc. The snipers and the protesters, together, rescinded that.



Anything to say on the stuff you just ignored, apparently?

What can be said? There's no hard evidence of who any snipers are, or what their number exactly is, or whether they are from one group or everyone had their own sniper or what.

 

[Joey McGee]

When de-rails collide, Magz must be near.

Joey, maybe your reading is better

Paet: vague stuff. haha.

ETA: If you've heard it, why did you complain that we're relying on a "translation?" Oh, you meant transcription I guess. It's totally accurate. Oh, he might've meant something other than he says. Sure, one or another of those must make this all irrelevant.

Yeah, you simply invent your interpretation of what you believe. In your mind, he was speaking as if he believed it was a false flag instead of relating what he'd heard, in your mind, the doctor is lying to the Telegraph because she's afraid of being killed and believes it's a false flag... you assure yourself it's "obvious" and there can be no other interpretation of the conversations and statements of the people involved, well, kind of like the 911 false flag is "obvious" to you? Kind of like statements we heard from Silverstein or Cheney or Rumsfeld made it "obvious" it was a false flag? Flagrant speculation, a thread tied together between news reports you don't have the full understanding of. We've heard it all before.... same crap different event, tl;dr present some facts

 

[Joey McGee]

Ah, we've been moved. I don't do CT forum threads. What a stupid waste of time this was. Thanks for all the "skepticism," folks.

How could you have possibly expected anything different to happen after reading the OP? Do you really think that trying to go around morally shaming people who don't give you the respect you feel you deserve will make up for your lack of evidence and convincing narrative? Do you suppose that maybe if you can't get 'em with the twoof, you can appeal to their sense of moral or intellectual insecurity? You'd probably have better luck selling pencils from a cup!

 

[uke2se]

You're talking about a different deal. I'm talking about the relevant one on the 20th, calling for December elections, etc. The snipers and the protesters, together, rescinded that.

I am talking about the deal on the 20th as well. Most protesters didn't think they should stop protesting just because a deal had been struck. Good for them. Keep pressure on.

Yanukovich then fled.

 

[catsmate]

Let me add the evidence already cited by credible people - the bullets being the same for police and "protesters."

So what? Have you any idea how common such ammunition is?

<snippage>

http://rt.com/news/ukraine-deadly-clashes-reactions-652/

Seriously? You cite Russia Today as if it has any credibility.....

If you worry about the amount of stupidity, the best resort for you would be to stop posting.

Or at least stop parroting Putin's propaganda purveyor.

 

[catsmate]

Or any other kind of expert.

A doctor who looks at bullets and sees similarities can mean any number of things. It can mean the doctor isn't used to bullets and see any bullets as similar looking. It can mean the bullets are of a similar shape and size, which is the fact with many rifle bullets. It can even mean that the bullets came from the same type of weapon, or even the same weapon.

It's just like his Libya stuff, absolute crap on technical details.
Given the ubiquity of certain calibres in the former SU it's not at all surprising that they'd be, well, common.

This is why we have experts conduct an examination of bullets used in crimes. These experts use newfangled technology like "microscopes" and "compare" the bullets before spouting off on how they are similar-looking.

Indeed.

What the hell are you even talking about? The deal was struck, impeachment proceedings were started, and then Yanukovich fled.

What is obvious to most people is that your attempts to white wash the Yanukovich regime and the Russian invasion are blatant and quite disgusting.

But they were anti-USA and to a certain type that's all that matters.

USA = EVIL
Supports the USA in any way - Evil
Opposes the USA = Wonderful people
​

 

[Garrison]

It's just like his Libya stuff, absolute crap on technical details.
Given the ubiquity of certain calibres in the former SU it's not at all surprising that they'd be, well, common.


Indeed.


But they were anti-USA and to a certain type that's all that matters.

USA = EVIL
Supports the USA in any way - Evil
Opposes the USA = Wonderful people
​

Actually there seem to be two distinct strands here; the usual anti-Americanism but also one that seems to come out of that Tea Party belief that anything Obama does is wrong so if he opposes Russia's actions the Russians must be in the right.

 

[LSSBB]

Actually there seem to be two distinct strands here; the usual anti-Americanism but also one that seems to come out of that Tea Party belief that anything Obama does is wrong so if he opposes Russia's actions the Russians must be in the right.

And both sets of adherents are apparently offended at the idea that they actually be requested to back up their claims and not be able to say whatever the heck they want without being challenged.

 

[catsmate]

Actually there seem to be two distinct strands here; the usual anti-Americanism but also one that seems to come out of that Tea Party belief that anything Obama does is wrong so if he opposes Russia's actions the Russians must be in the right.

This is true; the wingnuts and moonbats have bent the political spectrum around and met in this idiocy. I see Ron Paul's supporting the Russians.

And both sets of adherents are apparently offended at the idea that they actually be requested to back up their claims and not be able to say whatever the heck they want without being challenged.

What woo peddler, whether it's 911, JFK, fluoride, NWO, god, aliens, afterlife, homeopathy or anything else, has ever reacted well to being asked for evidence.

 

[dudalb]

Actually there seem to be two distinct strands here; the usual anti-Americanism but also one that seems to come out of that Tea Party belief that anything Obama does is wrong so if he opposes Russia's actions the Russians must be in the right.

The kook left and the kook right getting together,sort of a modern day Hitler-Stalin pact.

 

[dudalb]

Putin has one advantage in his propaganda aimed at the US that the Soviets never had: He can find support from both the fringe Left and the fringe Right. The Soviets, because of their doctrinarie Marxism never had a chance in hell of getting any support from the far right. Putin does..and is getting some support from the John Birch types.

 

[catsmate]

Putin has one advantage in his propaganda aimed at the US that the Soviets never had: He can find support from both the fringe Left and the fringe Right. The Soviets, because of their doctrinarie Marxism never had a chance in hell of getting any support from the far right. Putin does..and is getting some support from the John Birch types.

Well there was Lyndon LaRouche.

 

[Joey McGee]

Well there was Lyndon LaRouche.

There still is! He's written an urgent open letter to congress, and of course it's been printed by the government propaganda arms of the Russian and Iranian governments. (Voice of Russia and Press TV)

I'm reminded of when during the Syria chemical weapons affair the Russians were promoting a group of former Pentagon officials who disagreed with the consensus assessment. I looked it up and it was run by Ray McGovern and a bunch of other kooks. While it's likely to be a cynical ploy to promote garbage like this, sometimes I wonder if the Russians really believe the crap they help promote.

http://www.larouchepub.com/lar/2014/4111jaccuse.html

 

[Darth Rotor]

It is, however, a rather good indication that the proponent is getting their information from less than academically reputable sources.

Khazars were a people who for a few centuries ruled the roost in what was called, in olden days, Scythia ... and IIRC some other parts around the Black Sea. I am sure you don't dispute that.

(Some of the bizarre assertions about what happened to them once someone else kicked them aside, as happened to Cimmerians and others, we need not get into here, or for that matter, anywhere.)

 

[BazBear]

Unless you live close to the border with Canada and have a Canadian parent. Then you're Canadian. Somehow.

No.
I'm still a Yank

ETA-Mom was born in Nova Scotia, where her dad was from, but grew up in Maine, and remembered nothing of that evil nasty country to the NORTH!!!!1111

 

[BazBear]

If the snipers were planted by "Western imperialists" in order to make it look like Yanukovich's government forces were killing protesters in order to justify Western intervention to remove Yanukovich, why were they also shooting the police that Yanukovich was using to crack down on those protesters?

Details, details, details. Never let documented facts get in the way. Now, if someone comes up with other documented facts...