Ukraine sniping problem...

[uke2se]

First, I appreciate that you managed to not make big deal of an obvious, rushed typo.

Maybe just maybe, for reasons I'd like explained a bit, that really is the best explanation. The snipers that underwrote our rise to power definitely fired from Maidan Euro-free-zone happyland, as we sternly denied up 'til now ... but it was still Yanukovych, or Putin, to, you know, cause violence and stuff.

You can see I'm not putting my money on that option, but it's possible.

The snipers didn't "underwrite their rise to power.

They checked the guns issued to Berkut and they didn't match the bullets that killed people. That's what Moskal said.

It's good that you trust Moskal. Seems to be an easy thing to fake/lie about.

Lol. I refer and defer to the record. Suggest you do same.

I am.

You have a guess, and it's I'm wrong. On everything. You don't even bother making sense half the time, or checking what I'm wrong about. You could stand to take a break maybe.

I don't guess that you're wrong. I arrive at that conclusion from the piss poor way you conduct your investigoogle.

But you always had clear implications, with your "leave it to the experts" mentality (ie, status quo, frozen at what the Cabal has said) and having only one party fielding visually "verified" and yet "concealed" snipers ... yea, you never did field an explicit guess. You are just *way too responsible* for that.

Correct. You can lay off the sarcasm. It is not only the responsible thing to do, but the skeptical, especially when one is as bad at it as you.

You ... Why do you lie?

I don't.

How do you manage to say basically nothing and still squeeze so much dishonesty out of it?

Stop projecting.

Clashing cover stories is a classic sign of cover-up, dude. The truth doesn't have all these different versions. They're telling different versions.

You know what else contradicting versions of events is a classic sign of, "dude"? Difference of opinion.

Motive is a classic ... motive for crimes that later need covered up.

Mhmmm...

No, nothing's proven in that. But you have to be chemically self-impaired to not see how there's growing cause for just the same concern Urmas Paet picked up in late February.

Still lying about Paet, I see.

Everyone, BTW, now says the snipers shot both sides. Remember when that "rumor" was hotly contested?

Unlike you, I like rumors verified before I take them as gospel.


Rest snipped as I cba.

 

[Caustic Logic]

Correct. You can lay off the sarcasm. It is not only the responsible thing to do, but the skeptical, especially when one is as bad at it as you.

Okay then, sarcasm aside ... let's put your actual skepticism-responsibility-caution needs on this scale:

1) World Governments - command armies, can start wars, tasked with protecting millions, etc. Mucho responsibility to steer things right and not wrong. Russia, US, each had their own moral clarity on the snipers issue, blaming either the government or the opposition. They cited avidence, varying quality and clarity, but one of them had to have it wrong.

2) Opposition leaders, activists, militants - people with supposed knowledge and interest, leading small-to-mid-sized groups, listened to by the higher powers - high responsibility to get it right - with no sign of careful investigation, they decided who to stomp very easily and set themselves up to do it. Then, they took over the capitol and kept going from there. People effected: millions. Civil war now seeming likely, etc.

3) Pro Journalists: they speak to any of the above and report "news" people in the millions take as likely fact and make decisions on. High responsibility. With nothing but "activists say" and the fact that people were shot, mainstream media routinely referred to the criminals as "police snipers" or admitted it wasn't know who they were, coupled with leading references to armed regime forces and activist blame. Numbers possibly misled: millions. But little care was shown.

4) Myself - a regular guy with no vested powers, very mild influence as a self-appointed investigator, co-founder of an "organization" with a dated name, author of various articles, occasional un-answered letters to powerful people, etc. Based on consideration of the evidence available, I've formed and expressed a fairly nuanced opinion here.

I worry that I contributed to getting a Libyan guy killed once, for being right, not wrong. But I've been over it and I stand by the decision I made to follow that thread. (details here for the curious, pp 90-91)

5) You - a regular person with no responsibility at all, professional pest on a discussion forum *, with almost zero danger of harming anyone with a wrong call ...

6) Some guy in a coma in ... Tacoma. Slightly less influence and danger, slightly less to actually say, way less annoying. Incapable of forming an opinion, irrelevant. The list basically bottoms out at you

Of all these people, you alone act as if you're God, as if your say is so important it'll decide the fate of nations. You alone cannot run any risk of error, must wait until everyone else's opinions and all sooper-science facts (never transmitted via the googlenet!) have been tallied and verified, and undeniable truth has been reached.

Then, you will point to that and say "that." Angels will sing.

You, of all the ranked-by-relevance minds on this list, claim this totally BS position.

Bluff called.

All second-guessing and no first-guesses = fail.

* I presume you have some kind of job and other contributions to society, but this all I see of it.

 

[Caustic Logic]

Speaking of occasional articles and stuff, my latest:

* Who was Maidan snipers’ mastermind? Oriental Review, May 29

A relevant excerpt helps explain what I mean by the significance of the snipers Prubiy failed to stop, in fact for days on end:

From February 18-20, security forces and civilians were, as Parubiy says, killed somewhat “equally” by these snipers to create “violent civic unrest.” But there was a telling pattern to how different parts of that were timed.

First, consider how ten unarmed policemen were shot dead the night of February 18th, forcing a decision to bring in armed security forces. That allowed later killings to be realistically blamed on them, as happened. (Were these the same provocateurs present a day and a half later, or a different shift?)

By the 20th, a force was assembled on the Maidan adequate to stomp the police out by noon and shoot the Berkut out of their nearest posts by 12:45. They even blocked the train bringing in the Army support, and readied to march up to the central government’s buildings and stomp whomever they wished. This force was under Parubiy’s leadership no later than his announcement early on the 21st that “all the leaders of the hundreds are declaring their consent to coordinated action, including the hundreds of the Right Sector … We’re in control of Kiev. We have seized control of the government quarter.”

It was only at that shift in power that Parubiy “Spetsnaz snipers” unleashed their main killing spree. On video and within bare minutes, they picked off at least 30 unarmed civilians sent in behind the Hotel Ukraine, to top off “Heaven’s Hundred.”That is, this un-ambiguous, unforgivable “Yanukovych crime” was delivered as soon as the natural punishment for it had been placed.

Commandant Parubiy, who oversaw the distribution and timing of much of that violence, couldn’t deny its pattern helped them, as he said to Euractiv, “oust Yanukovich.” That prompted the question:

Q: So you recognize that you ousted Yanukovich?
A: Yes. He ran away.
Q: But he ran away because he was afraid for his life?
A: Yes of course. After so many deaths and such national tension, he understood that if he didn’t run away, the personal consequences could be very bad.

Under this plausible threat, the president fled. An 1:36 pm announcement from the Maidan ordered members of Parliament to meet at 3:00 to vote him out for good. They were given “a guarantee that the Parliament would not be stormed during the session.” The “hundreds” just snatched that option, but promised not to use it – unless maybe they were provoked by a wrong vote. In the end most of Parliament was willing to show up on the 22nd instead, and those agreed unanimously to impeach Yanukovych – and not be stomped. After all, Parubiy’s Maidan machine still controlled Kiev.

 

[eirik]

/\ How childish, even for a fairytale.

So you want us to believe your unsubstantiated conspiracy theories based on blobs and elevators, and further to a priori disbelieve the actual investigation done in Kiev because you and some RT-nutjobs says so. Meh.

BTW, ...interesting..website you write for. You feel you fit right in? Just some highlights from "oriental review" :

"US State Department Defends Russian Sodomites" http://orientalreview.org/2010/11/29/us-state-department-defends-russian-sodomites/

"Ukrainian Dream Comes True" http://orientalreview.org/2013/12/23/ukrainian-dream-comes-true/

"What Will the Bilderbergers Decide on Iran?" http://orientalreview.org/2010/05/22/what-will-the-bilderbergers-decide-on-iran/


"Hysteria around LGBT: what about the rights of the naturals?" http://orientalreview.org/2013/08/23/hysteria-around-lgbt-what-about-the-rights-of-normal-people/

 

[Caustic Logic]

/\ How childish, even for a fairytale.

First, I don't care what you think of the site - I'm only responsible for my article, and it's me your complaining to. I understand you have to insult it, of course. But can you explain what made you settle on "childish, even for a fairytale."? That strikes me as nicely insulting, but not at all accurate or insightful.

So you want us to believe your unsubstantiated conspiracy theories

Is there such thing as a substantiated conspiracy theory?

based on blobs

one "blob" that's dark, rectangular, the same size, shape, and location of a window that was closed, then opened, as soon as security forces were chased out. I first saw it looking for open windows there, when a trajectory pointed there. That window was probably opened and then fired from, killing at least one person below, maybe several. Pretend the window suddenly has no shape if you like, like the other clowns. This is an awesome clue no one else caught yet.

And for a third time I'll repeat - you need to see the video (2:26), not Carlitos' still, to see how consistely the right shape it really is. Contrary to popular claims, the window did not become shapeless! But keep saying it anyway, makes perfect sense and makes me all wrong and stuff. Haha, you picked the blobby window, no sniper could shoot there it's ... a wormhole to another dimension, or whatever!

and elevators,

in the insurgent-Parubiy-secured Hotel Ukraine, carrying green-hemleted riflemen up, when a green-helmeted sniper up there was caught killing people later... maybe all coincidence as you presume (?) and maybe not.

and further to a priori disbelieve the actual investigation done in Kiev

Which one? The one I've been giving credence to, that exonerated the Berkut and decided the firing was from Parubiy-secured areas? Or the one Parubiy cites, blaming Spetsnaz snipers? Should I just believe any Kiev probe by the people who benefitted and have to blame the old order? Are these two findings both somehow true? Maybe it was Spetsnaz disguised as SBU disguised as Maidanistas?

because you and some RT-nutjobs says so. Meh.

Just said it out of thin air huh? Yeah, that doesn't sound very good. There should be evidence cited if someone's going to make a claim like that. Bullet trajectories, windows, people, places, times... but all I have is random shapes, random people in random elevators with random objects in their hands, and made up nutjob nothingness, right?

On what basis did you accept the theory where Yanukopvych/SBU/Berkut/Spetsnaz/other-Russian-third-force/whoever-but-the-protesters-that-benefitted ... conspired to carry out this sniper massacre at just that time? What evidence was there ever, besides people getting shot, and "activists say" reporting that blamed the demonized government-for-another-day-or-so?

You didn't need much at all to make that call, did you? And you think I should have done the same, right?

 

[eirik]

First, I don't care what you think of the site - I'm only responsible for my article, and it's me your complaining to. I understand you have to insult it, of course.

You could write anywhere on the internet, yet you choose to publish on a repulsive right extremist hate fueled putin hailing propaganda rag. That speaks volumes.

But can you explain what made you settle on "childish, even for a fairytale."? That strikes me as nicely insulting, but not at all accurate or insightful.

It strikes me as childish that you think facts will somehow conform to your biases.

but all I have is random shapes, random people in random elevators with random objects in their hands, and made up nutjob nothingness, right?

Yes.

 

[Caustic Logic]

It strikes me as childish that you think facts will somehow conform to your biases.

Huh? What in the article led you to think I think that?

What do the facts actually conform to, BTW, in your opinion?

Yes.

Another vote for the shape-shifting who-cares-what that replaced the window as soon as I pointed out its significance. That's skeptacular.

Can you offer one plausible guess what else it is causing that black rectangle of pixels right there in the video? I guess ... the window that's right there and that shape. You guess... that I'm wrong and that's it? No one else has a guess, other than not the window of that shape right there. It could be anything but that, but no one's offered a single replacement guess for just what (rodent cartoons aside).

No, of course "skeptics" like you don't do specifics. Way too "skeptical" for that. Good day.

 

[eirik]

It's a black shape. Could be a shadow, or could be lack of glare since the window has a different angle than the adjacents, or it could be artifacts. Or if could be the window is broken from the inside or outside, by purpose or accident. It could be opened so to shoot someone, or it could have been opened by a plethora of other reasons. We just don't know, and can not know based on the facts available at this time.

And people going into an elevator, up or down. I don't see anything sinister in that. They could be on their way to murdering civilians, but so could just about any other armed personnel that day.

Your conviction here that this somehow shows anything of remote interest to the question of who did the shooting, shows that you're just hunting for anomalies so that you can force your conspiracy theories where there is no facts either way.

 

[Caustic Logic]

Hey, thanks. Don't feel pressured just 'cause you spoke up, but for the record, I have to do this:

It's a black shape.

Shape, good. Let me know if you can get more specific.

Could be a shadow,

of?

No, that doesn't work.

or could be lack of glare since the window has a different angle than the adjacents

I think this explains it, actually. But, all three were shining equally a few minutes before the middle one alone went black. The angle is different, drastically, and became that way during the course of the video.

That is, it was opened. That's my theory. I don't know if it opens, but the glass is gone/at a totally different angle, and smashing it out doesn't sound right - too loud and crude. Very clean edges too, if so. So I guess somehow it opens, apparently inward.

, or it could be artifacts.

Hypothetically, yes. I'll be merciful here and presume you won't be seriously arguing that. It's not a one-frame edge-of-the-screen fluke here.

Or if could be the window is broken from the inside or outside, by purpose or accident.

Ah, covered. Same effect either way. Could be this.

It could be opened so to shoot someone, or it could have been opened by a plethora of other reasons. We just don't know, and can not know based on the facts available at this time.

Not for certain, but considering a sniper trajectory points there, and it was opened just before that, I'm going with to shoot people.

Now who would be in there in the minutes after the last Berkut fled under gunfire? Spetsnaz? A banker who works there? The cleaning lady? A transient, considering the place was probably evacuated by then? We cannot know for sure, I guess.

And people going into an elevator, up or down. I don't see anything sinister in that. They could be on their way to murdering civilians, but so could just about any other armed personnel that day.

Fair enough.

Your conviction here that this somehow shows anything of remote interest to the question of who did the shooting, shows that you're just hunting for anomalies so that you can force your conspiracy theories where there is no facts either way.

Is it an anomaly, or people possibly "on their way to murdering civilians" and/or kill/chase away security forces? You do recognize those aren't umbrellas they're holding.

Coincidence theories are fine, I just don't find them all that convincing.

 

[carlitos]

... black rectangle of pixels ...

Repeating this over and over still won't make it true.

[qimg]http://i.imgur.com/tsOzxmh.png[/qimg]

 

[Caustic Logic]

Repeating this over and over still won't make it true.

I see you remain willing and able to squeeze da giiglz from anything . Of course by now you know why posting that over and over, and even bigger, doesn't prove your point, except ... you also know you don't even have a point. So I guess this might help prove that.

The snipers didn't bring them to power. We've already been over this, so you can stop telling fibs about that. Nobody's buying it.

Hey, at least I can offer a specific opinion on the relationship between the Maidan snipers and the fall of Yanukovych. Crucial.

Are you too "responsible" to pick one of these basic options as a best guess so far?
1) The snipers of Feb. 18-20 being blamed on Y was at least somewhat helpful to convincing people he had to go and be replaced
2) There's no real relation whatsoever - Y's demise was already inevitable and the sniper killings made no different at all in the timing, tone, or anything of his removal
3) The murky snipers actually helped Y cling to power somewhat longer than he otherwise would have.

Pick a number and then add whatever notes, or it's a dodge and a fail.

 

[eirik]

Have you forgotten this whole Euromaidan thingy that started in November, and quickly escalated because of the Russian style violent dispersion of demonstrators? Prior to 18th of February, journalists revealed that the city government planned a mass burial of 26 unidentified unclaimed bodies. 14 of these were from January alone. This was late January. By then 1900 protesters had sought medical help, and 681 was hospitalized. 166-300 were abducted, not imprisoned or arrested, by 30th of March. 9 protesters were confirmed killed by the regime by 14th of February. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_killed_during_Euromaidan
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan

Do you really have such a bad memory that you think the government had any chance of recovering on February 2014, regardless of the snipers on the 18th and 19th?

 

[uke2se]

Have you forgotten this whole Euromaidan thingy that started in November, and quickly escalated because of the Russian style violent dispersion of demonstrators? Prior to 18th of February, journalists revealed that the city government planned a mass burial of 26 unidentified unclaimed bodies. 14 of these were from January alone. This was late January. By then 1900 protesters had sought medical help, and 681 was hospitalized. 166-300 were abducted, not imprisoned or arrested, by 30th of March. 9 protesters were confirmed killed by the regime by 14th of February. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_killed_during_Euromaidan
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan

Do you really have such a bad memory that you think the government had any chance of recovering on February 2014, regardless of the snipers on the 18th and 19th?

Caustic Logic doesn't "do" context. He's too busy looking at the grainy details, no matter how out of focus they may be.

 

[Caustic Logic]

The bunch of bodies story I didn't forget, I just never heard. This 24 was it? Is this part of the app. 100 total dead? The 15+ police and uncounted Berkut killed the 19th and 20th - the 30+ protesters killed in an hour on the 20th, the several people including a deaf olympics athlete and a journalist killed by masked (regime!) thugs with grenades at a made-up checkpoint outside Kiev late on the 18th - Volodomyr Melnychuk and other later adds - the IT guy beaten to death before the torching of Regions party HQ - how many people can have been killed before that, when the "heaven's hundred" is supposed to be for the whole span and killed on/by both sides? I never mastered all the info, but my readin at the time was prior to those last days, there was one surge of violence sometime in January, with lots of Maidan guns seen and a few killed (on both sides, I think), and otherwise close to zero until those blitzkreig last days.

What evidence do we have who killed these early 24 and why they were unidentified? It sounds as strange as a lot of other things in that span. And since.

So that's the late February itself barely mattered opinion. I take the double dodge on my question as two members supporting option 2, but not wanting to say it outright. Maybe just because I asked.

The snipers mattered zero or close to it. it's an opinion, just like mine. I've seen it now twice, with you two.

If it's an opinion everyone holds and I'm ignoring, you should be able to find where someone says the snipers are overrated, weren't even a nail in the coffin, I could cite people saying basically the opposite, but I'm already past the time I should waste on this nonsense. But I'll let you two see that for yourselves as you scrounge for the opposite and fail to come up with it. If you do, which you won't.

Just because the evidence increasingly points to the logical culprits - and you don't like it - does not mean you get to re-brand this crucial crime as irrelevant, and have people just accept that.

And hey, Uke of the super-responsible position, who urges me to keep quiet like you until the facts are in, because being wrong could be dangerous on such important issues - how does this, and the parliament investigation, etc. square with the whole thing not even mattering? How many BS positions are you in a position to put yourself in here? I hope you get bonuses for that lol.

 

[uke2se]

And hey, Uke of the super-responsible position, who urges me to keep quiet like you until the facts are in, because being wrong could be dangerous on such important issues - how does this, and the parliament investigation, etc. square with the whole thing not even mattering? How many BS positions are you in a position to put yourself in here? I hope you get bonuses for that lol.

Dead people matter. They just don't matter to the fall of the Yanukovic regime. That was already well underway. I'm sorry that you can't see a human life as anything but political currency, but there you go.

 

[Caustic Logic]

Dead people matter. They just don't matter to the fall of the Yanukovic regime.

Wow! Not just sniper deaths but human deaths had noting to do with it. Awesome!

So this guy lied then?

Q: But he ran away because he was afraid for his life?
A: Yes of course. After so many deaths and such national tension, he understood that if he didn’t run away, the personal consequences could be very bad.

I'm sorry that you can't see a human life as anything but political currency

The big spenders are the ones running Kiev now. I'm sorry that you can't see very good at all.

 

[Caustic Logic]

Aw, c,mon! Next up in the pattern was "everyone knows Yanukovych running away didn't matter to the fall of the Yanukovych regime.

Scraping for news, one English report (and no time to dig deeper ATM) says:

Kiev. Prosecutor General's Office of Ukraine didn’t confirm the version for the use of snipers against demonstrators at Kiev Independence Square, Ukrinform announced.
"To date, we have not found evidence that these 76 people were killed by snipers. We have not received material evidence or conclusions of medical reports that would confirm this version, or would constitute irrefutable evidence," Deputy Prosecutor General of Ukraine, Alexei Braganets said.

That is, the number of "Heaven's Hundred" + killed by snipers, or said to be, might be 76. And now ... they weren't snipers?

If that's what they're saying now, I'm thinking they finally saw this thread and Uke's analysis and decided they're going to play the "that's not a sniper" game. All gunmen shooting people on both sides dead from windows don't count. The only snipers were Berkut, verified on the lawn, but not connected to any deaths. And Yanukovych will remain wanted over sniper deaths because that still sounds best.