Ukraine/Russia/Neutral, which side are you on?

[Michel H]

Might makes right? Is that all there is?

No, I don't think so, because Russia overreacted, and violated international law in a very serious way by invading.

 

[dasmiller]

No, I don't think so, because Russia overreacted, and violated international law in a very serious way by invading.

But Russia being powerful and ruthless makes Ukraine 10% to blame?

 

[arthwollipot]

The Ukrainians knew very well what they could do to make Russia happy, but they chose a different path.

And Neville Chamberlain knew very well what he could do to make Hitler happy, too. How well did that work out?

 

[Norman Alexander]

I am not on Putin's side.

All of Ukraine wants this whole thing to stop, and the Russian forces to go back home.

Many, many Russians are not on Putin's side either, and want this whole thing to stop, and the Russian forces to go back home.

So it's not a Russia vs. Ukraine thing. It's Putin vs. humanity.

 

[Mojo]

The Ukrainians knew very well what they could do to make Russia happy, but they chose a different path.

If a kid gets beaten up for not handing over his dinner money, would you say he’s partly to blame? He knew very well what he could do to make the bully happy.

 

[Michel H]

But Russia being powerful and ruthless makes Ukraine 10% to blame?

It's not Russia being powerful and ruthless which makes Ukraine 10% to blame, it's Ukraine's own policies (see above).

 

[Michel H]

If a kid gets beaten up for not handing over his dinner money, would you say he’s partly to blame? He knew very well what he could do to make the bully happy.

Think about right of self-determination of peoples, Crimea, Donetsk and Lugansk, NATO crimes in Serbia/Yugoslavia and other places, "sanctions". Also, if you want to be on good terms with your neighbors, you ought to take their concerns into account (think about NATO expansion).

 

[erwinl]

Think about right of self-determination of peoples, Crimea, Donetsk and Lugansk, NATO crimes in Serbia/Yugoslavia and other places, "sanctions". Also, if you want to be on good terms with your neighbors, you ought to take their concerns into account (think about NATO expansion).

You do know that ethnically spoken, the Donetsk Oblast is almost 57% Ukranian, according to the 2001 Census? With ethnically Russians only being a little more than 38% of the population of the oblast, this would mean that the oblast blongs to Ukraine, according to your rules of self-determination?

 

[Darat]

You do know that ethnically spoken, the Donetsk Oblast is almost 57% Ukranian, according to the 2001 Census? With ethnically Russians only being a little more than 38% of the population of the oblast, this would mean that the oblast blongs to Ukraine, according to your rules of self-determination?

Pointed out to him before - water off a duck's back.

 

[Michel H]

You do know that ethnically spoken, the Donetsk Oblast is almost 57% Ukranian, according to the 2001 Census? With ethnically Russians only being a little more than 38% of the population of the oblast, this would mean that the oblast blongs to Ukraine, according to your rules of self-determination?

Regarding use of Russian language in Donetsk, I found this:

In 1994 a referendum was held in Donetsk Oblast and Luhansk Oblast, with around 90% supporting recognition of Russian as an official language alongside Ukrainian, and for Russian to be the only official language on a regional level; however, the referendum was annulled by the Kyiv government.

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donet...eferendum was,annulled by the Kyiv government.)
and this:

Russian is the most common first language in the Donbas and Crimea regions of Ukraine,

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russi... most common,southern portions of the country.)

Parts of Donbas are controlled by separatist groups in the course of the Russo-Ukrainian War: the Donetsk People's Republic and the Luhansk People's Republic.

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donbas)

There is perhaps a difference between being a Russian speaker and an ethnic Russian.

 

[erwinl]

Regarding use of Russian language in Donetsk, I found this:

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donet...eferendum was,annulled by the Kyiv government.)
and this:

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russi... most common,southern portions of the country.)

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donbas)

There is perhaps a difference between being a Russian speaker and an ethnic Russian.

Ah.
But if we're going with the language people speak and not their ethniticity, there is no possible way you can ever defend the right of existence of the state of Belgium, can you?

 

[Oystein]

Think about right of self-determination of peoples, Crimea, Donetsk and Lugansk,

There is no people native to Crimea, none native to Donetsk, none native to Lugansk.

You cannot pretend you have not been schooled on that: You can't just draw any line around populations that you happen to favor and hold a referendum with them on secession - of course Crimea, Donetsk and Luhansk will have pockets of Ukrainian populations after secession. Will you then support their holding referendums on their, smaller territories? Or do propose conveneient ethnic cleansings?

What you are entirely forgetting is that there are prior rights, obligations, assets and infrastructure that you cut apart and that need to be dealt with.
This is why any PEACEFUL border realignment requires a lengthy process full of negotiations and agreements on price tags, rights of way, and minority rights.
NONE of that happened in Crimea.
NONE of that happened in Donetsk
NONE of that happened in Luhansk

That's why none of those annexations was even borderline legitimate.

I believe that, if a process as I outlined it, had been undertaken for Crimea, an eventual free referendum without coercion would easily have gone Russia's way, which would have been entirely fine, AND Ukraine would have received compensation for common assets lost - such as for the newly found oil and gas fields off the Black Sea coast.

Instead, we saw a hasty military occupation, a referendum essentially at gunpoint, and open highway robbery.

In Donetsk and Luhansk: FAR worse than that: Open, murderous rebellio and treason.

NATO crimes in Serbia/Yugoslavia and other places, "sanctions".

Whataboutism is a sure sign you are losing the debate and you know it.

Also, if you want to be on good terms with your neighbors, you ought to take their concerns into account (think about NATO expansion).

You talk about the legitimate security interests of Russia? Fine.
Do you also want to talk about the legitimate security interests of Ukraine?
Seeing that Russia has the capacity to invade Ukraine and chop off territory, and seeing that Russia already HAS invaded Ukraine and invaded Russia, and seeing that Ukraine does NOT have the capacity to invade Russia nor chop off Russian territory, I think you will agree without hesitation that the situation prior to the invasion was heavily stacked in favor of Russia's legitimate security interests and very cleary to the detriment of Ukraine's legitimate security interests, such that any neutral, rational and well-meaning observer would have recommended to very much beef up Ukraine's military position - and the best (and most defensive) method might be to join an alliance.

Agreed?

Russia is of course free also to join any alliance they wish. It's really THEIR problem when everybody turns away from them, fearing that Russia is not actually every going to become friendly.

 

[Oystein]

Regarding use of Russian language...

...you have been schooled on at length already, and unless you plead advanced dementia, you cannot pretend to NOT have been schooled on this.

 

[Mojo]

Think about right of self-determination of peoples, Crimea, Donetsk and Lugansk,

Like this?

NATO crimes in Serbia/Yugoslavia and other places,

Such as?

"sanctions".

What would you prefer?

Also, if you want to be on good terms with your neighbors, you ought to take their concerns into account (think about NATO expansion).

In other words, they should have done what Russia told them.

 

[dasmiller]

I can't reconcile

It's not Russia being powerful and ruthless which makes Ukraine 10% to blame, it's Ukraine's own policies (see above).

with

It is obvious that, when you do all you can to make a powerful and ruthless neighbor angry, and try to destroy its economy, you take some risks.

The Ukrainians knew very well what they could do to make Russia happy, but they chose a different path.

 

[Mojo]

Also, if you want to be on good terms with your neighbors, you ought to take their concerns into account (think about NATO expansion).

Shouldn’t you take Ukraine’s concerns over Russian expansionism into account? As far as I’m aware, NATO has never annexed any Russian territory.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Russia's actions have forced me to be on Ukraine's side.

I hate that Ukraine has allowed nationalists in fascist uniforms to roam around and serve in the military. But this invasion has turned this into a very black and white situation when it was once a bit grey.

Yea only the US is allowed to do that.

 

[Ryokan]

Regarding use of Russian language in Donetsk, I found this:

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donet...eferendum was,annulled by the Kyiv government.)
and this:

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russi... most common,southern portions of the country.)

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donbas)

There is perhaps a difference between being a Russian speaker and an ethnic Russian.

Perhaps? I replied about this in the other thread, when you were trying to claim that speaking Russian equals wanting to join the Russian empire.

I quoted the same then, from your own Wikipedia article on Donbas.

According to the 2001 census, ethnic Ukrainians form 58% of the population of Luhansk Oblast and 56.9% of Donetsk Oblast. Ethnic Russians form the largest minority, accounting for 39% and 38.2% of the two oblasts respectively.[58] Modern Donbas is a predominately Russophone region. According to the 2001 census, Russian is the main language of 74.9% of residents in Donetsk Oblast and 68.8% in Luhansk Oblast.[59] The proportion of native Russian-speakers is higher than ethnic Russians because some ethnic Ukrainians and other nationalities also indicate Russian as their mother tongue.

Will you ignore it again? Or keep claiming that the percentage of people speaking Russian in Donbas proves they want to join the Russian Empire?

 

[sackett]

NATO expansion? expanionism? crimes? aggression? imperialism? Drang nach Osten?

Woo hoo! Here's our new marching song:

I dreamed i saw
Léon Degrelle
Alive as you n me
But Lee, I said
Yore heap years dead
I'm still around, sez he.

 

[bobdroege7]

This poll is for informational purposes only. Please, no wagering.

Ah come on, let me wager on Ukraine to show!