• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

Ukraine/Russia/Neutral, which side are you on?

Ukraine/Russia/Neutral, which side are you on?

  • Ukraine

    Votes: 130 99.2%

  • Russia

    Votes: 1 0.8%

  • Neutral/Planet X

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Total voters
    131
Makes you wonder what it means to be on one "side" vs the other.

In the broadest sense, I'm on Ukraine's side. Complications of foreign policy aside, there's a pretty basic principle that I subscribe to that wars of aggression are bad and that imperialism is bad, which is pretty obviously what is happening here with Russian aggression.

In the specific sense, I'm on nobody's side. At least, not in any meaningful way. I'm not doing anything about the Russian invasion. Hell, Ukraine has invited foreigners to come fight on their behalf and I probably know how to shoot better than some of the babushkas getting AKs handed out to them, so it's not like I can claim there's nothing I can do.
 
"Is the water wet or dry?"
"Well that depends on what you mean by wet..."
"And that's one vote for 'dry.'"
 
JoeMorgue said:
"Is the water wet or dry?"
"Well that depends on what you mean by wet..."
"And that's one vote for 'dry.'"
Click to expand...

As of yet, all votes for Ukraine.

I think it's interesting to ask what it means to "support" Ukraine or Russia. Posting on a forum and hoping for a positive outcome is well and good, but it won't kill any Russians. This criticism, if you take it that way, applies to me as much as anyone (except for maybe that Texan nutbag fighting with the Russians).
 
Last edited:
Russia's actions have forced me to be on Ukraine's side.

I hate that Ukraine has allowed nationalists in fascist uniforms to roam around and serve in the military. But this invasion has turned this into a very black and white situation when it was once a bit grey.

Russia is in the wrong, 100%.
 
Ukraine. If Russia didn't have nukes I'd be all for a pre-emptive invasion of Russia quite honestly. Would take about 5 minutes to destroy the Russian army.
 
If Russia stops fighting, the war ceases to exist.
If Ukraine stops fighting, Ukraine ceases to exist.

No amount of mush-mouthed poly-sci talking head nonsense can or will make either of those facts not true, and nothing else matters.
 
picture.php
 
Last edited:
Let's hear from George Galloway, Ramsey Clark, Tulsi Gabbard, Pat Buchanan, Ron Paul.

Justin Raimondo might be able to vote "neutral" from his grave.
 
Hercules56 said:
I hate that Ukraine has allowed nationalists in fascist uniforms to roam around and serve in the military. But this invasion has turned this into a very black and white situation when it was once a bit grey.
Click to expand...

Unpopular opinion: I think Eastern European experiences of fascism versus communism are probably very different from Western and especially American views informed by pop culture representations of these things.

So I am reluctant to judge Ukrainian nationalists and even Ukrainian "nazis" by the same standards I judge American skinheads. Same as I don't begrudge a Hitler-themed bar in Thailand the same way I would a Hitler-themed bar in upstate New York.
 
I am 90% supporting Ukraine in this war of aggression launched by Russia, but not 100%, because it seems to me Ukraine should have accepted that Crimea is Russian since 2014, and not imposed sanctions on Crimea.

Similarly, Ukraine should have, in my opinion, recognized the two independent republics of Donbass (Donetsk and Lugansk). Also, Ukraine should, even now, show some political flexibility on these issues (this is, of course, different from president Zelensky making frequent phone calls to his Western colleagues "please help us, please help us!").

In addition, in view of NATO crimes, I believe it is somewhat bad taste for Ukraine to try to join NATO, especially if this exasperates their powerful neighbor to the East, although one can understand that the Ukrainians are interested by a possible NATO protection.

So, although I side with attacked Ukraine, I also think that, to some extent, Ukraine brought the current catastrophe upon themselves by their actions.

I also think that banning Russian media outlets demonstrate some concerning fascist tendencies in the European Union (which is siding with Ukraine).
 
Today, several friends reposted a viral WhatsApp status message , saying that church bells would ring at 8 p.m. tonight, and that all should switch off lights then to "show Putin we rather sit in the dark than buy his oil and gas".

Yeah. Like that will show him.
Especially since it turned out that church bells didn't ring after all.

And tomorrow, they'll get up in their cozily heated bedrooms, have a long, hot shower and drive their fossil-fueled cars to work.

In a status message of my own, I responded that all should reduce target temperature for their homes by 1 °C or so. That might have a real effect: We will have to reduce gas and oil consumption significantly anyway, not just to "show Putin".
 
Michel H said:
I am 90% supporting Ukraine in this war of aggression launched by Russia, but not 100%, because it seems to me Ukraine should have accepted that Crimea is Russian since 2014, and not imposed sanctions on Crimea.

Similarly, Ukraine should have, in my opinion, recognized the two independent republics of Donbass (Donetsk and Lugansk). Also, Ukraine should, even now, show some political flexibility on these issues (this is, of course, different from president Zelensky making frequent phone calls to his Western colleagues "please help us, please help us!").

In addition, in view of NATO crimes, I believe it is somewhat bad taste for Ukraine to try to join NATO, especially if this exasperates their powerful neighbor to the East, although one can understand that the Ukrainians are interested by a possible NATO protection.

So, although I side with attacked Ukraine, I also think that, to some extent, Ukraine brought the current catastrophe upon themselves by their actions.

I also think that banning Russian media outlets demonstrate some concerning fascist tendencies in the European Union (which is siding with Ukraine).
Click to expand...

How on Earth does any of that even partially justify a Russian invasion?

Suppose that a small region of Canada held a referendum and voted that they'd like to be part of the United States. Should the U.S.
a) say "we're flattered. Here's a list of real estate agents if you'd like to buy homes in the US, or
b) send US troops to take over a key governmental building and several other critical sites in that part of Canada and then announce that it was part of the U.S.

If the US did b), and Canada didn't say, "oh, that's cool," would the U.S. then be 10% justified in sending in troops to capture all of Canada?

Because as far as I can tell, that's EXACTLY what's happened Ukraine (except that the Crimean referendum came after Russia took it over).
 
dasmiller said:
How on Earth does any of that even partially justify a Russian invasion?

Suppose that a small region of Canada held a referendum and voted that they'd like to be part of the United States. Should the U.S.
a) say "we're flattered. Here's a list of real estate agents if you'd like to buy homes in the US, or
b) send US troops to take over a key governmental building and several other critical sites in that part of Canada and then announce that it was part of the U.S.

If the US did b), and Canada didn't say, "oh, that's cool," would the U.S. then be 10% justified in sending in troops to capture all of Canada?

Because as far as I can tell, that's EXACTLY what's happened Ukraine (except that the Crimean referendum came after Russia took it over).
Click to expand...
I think it happened at about the same time, and it was essentially meaningful (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum#Post-referendum_polls).

It is obvious that, when you do all you can to make a powerful and ruthless neighbor angry, and try to destroy its economy, you take some risks.

The Ukrainians knew very well what they could do to make Russia happy, but they chose a different path.
 
dasmiller said:
How on Earth does any of that even partially justify a Russian invasion?

Suppose that a small region of Canada held a referendum and voted that they'd like to be part of the United States. Should the U.S.
a) say "we're flattered. Here's a list of real estate agents if you'd like to buy homes in the US, or
b) send US troops to take over a key governmental building and several other critical sites in that part of Canada and then announce that it was part of the U.S.

If the US did b), and Canada didn't say, "oh, that's cool," would the U.S. then be 10% justified in sending in troops to capture all of Canada?

Because as far as I can tell, that's EXACTLY what's happened Ukraine (except that the Crimean referendum came after Russia took it over).
Click to expand...

There's a lot of extra nuance in the case of Crimea and the two republics as well. Russia has been quite open in its desire to annex parts or even the whole of Ukraine ever since Ukraine became independent, and it actively strived to nudge the inhabitants in the "right" direction.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom