Merged Ukraine erupts in riots and general strike.

[Madalch]

I never said all. The majority, yes. Evidence

"However, many of Bandera's followers sought to play down his collaboration with the Germans in the fight for Ukraine's independence."

It's not that they like the Nazis, it's that they really freaking HATE the Russians/Soviets. Understand this- they remember the Holodomyr, and they do not blame it on "a lone Georgian"; they blame it on the Russians, who were pretty much in charge of the Soviet Union. And for this reason, they don't really want to sign any treaties that basically hand the keys to the economy over to Putin.

 

[L.Y.S.]

"However, many of Bandera's followers sought to play down his collaboration with the Germans in the fight for Ukraine's independence."

It's not that they like the Nazis, it's that they really freaking HATE the Russians/Soviets. Understand this- they remember the Holodomyr, and they do not blame it on "a lone Georgian"; they blame it on the Russians, who were pretty much in charge of the Soviet Union. And for this reason, they don't really want to sign any treaties that basically hand the keys to the economy over to Putin.

AND THEY DON'T WANT TO SIGN TREATIES WHICH DESTROY THEIR ECONOMY GO FIGURE!

So basically, "well they were Nazi sympathizers, but they were against the Russians so it's ah ok!" Gotcha

 

[McHrozni]

I think we were all wrong about this situation. What has transpired here is nothing more than a trade dispute. It seems that the EU would like for the Ukraine to rid of all of its beneficiary trade arrangements with Russia in order for closer economic ties to the EU. It seems that the best hand for Ukraine to play is to stay economically close to Russia. While many of its nationalistic western citizens would like closer ties to the west. A cancellation of their agreements however would result in an economic crisis for the Ukraine worse than the 1990s, and subsequent unemployment.

They get energy at reduced rates, and also many beneficial transit deals. For Ukrainian politicians this is simply. This economic deal with the EU is suicide. Seems that there is a paradoxical situation. This deal would pretty much screw up Ukraine's economy. There's no strategic plan to integrate the Ukraine. This deal cannot be made without including Russia, which composes more of the Ukraine's trade than all other trading countries combined.

It seems that this is a relatively simply matter. Those rioting idiots need to go home and pray to keep their jobs. Seems simple enough.

Some remain so, apparently.

McHrozni

 

[WildCat]

Did the EU not take into account Canada's relationship with the U.S. when crafting a special deal for Canada? Did they have several provisions and caveats which would displace millions of Canadian workers?

Did they? Would you like to expand on that?

And did the US throw a hissy fit and threaten Canada for negotiating a trade deal with the EU?

L.Y.S.?

Hello?

Is this thing working?

 

[Childlike Empress]

btw, there was one of those "who is the greatest threat to peace in the world" surveys lately. USA won of course, with I think 17% average. The country results are available. In Ukraine, Yankistan wins with a whopping 33% with Russia without chance on place 6 (5%). And even the Czechs don't share Klimax' comic-like fear and let reason prevail with Russia (8%) behind China (10%) and Yankistan "winning" on par with North Korea (14%).

 

[WildCat]

btw, there was one of those "who is the greatest threat to peace in the world" surveys lately. USA won of course, with I think 17% average. The country results are available. In Ukraine, Yankistan wins with a whopping 33% with Russia without chance on place 6 (5%). And even the Czechs don't share Klimax' comic-like fear and let reason prevail with Russia (8%) behind China (10%) and Yankistan "winning" on par with North Korea (14%).

That's funny, because the only thing that has kept you Euros from wholesale slaughtering each other the last 68 years with your stupid and endless tribal spats is US military power.

eta: and show me a spot on the globe where civil wars and sectarian violence exists and I'll show you the legacy of European colonialism. You Euros love to blame the USA for the messes you created yourself.

 

[Childlike Empress]

That's funny, because the only thing that has kept you Euros from wholesale slaughtering each other the last 68 years with your stupid and endless tribal spats is US military power.

eta: and show me a spot on the globe where civil wars and sectarian violence exists and I'll show you the legacy of European colonialism. You Euros love to blame the USA for the messes you created yourself.

Instead of whining about the past, deal with the presence. Ukrainians see very clearly that Yankistan and a number of other countries are a greater thread to peace than their neighbour Russia. That's an interesting fact regarding what was discussed before. That you don't like that everybody sees through your posturing is completely uninteresting both regarding the topic and in general.

 

[WildCat]

Instead of whining about the past, deal with the presence.

That's exactly what we're doing, cleaning up the mess Europeans have made of the world over the last 5 centuries. And it's a necessary task, and a thankless one as those ignorant of history point their fingers in the other direction.

Ukrainians see very clearly that Yankistan and a number of other countries are a greater thread to peace than their neighbour Russia. That's an interesting fact regarding what was discussed before. That you don't like that everybody sees through your posturing is completely uninteresting both regarding the topic and in general.

The US has nothing to do with this, it is between the EU, Ukraine, and Russia. I can only hope this is one of those rare times Euros can fix their problems themselves without resorting to war, at which point the US will once again be called upon to get involved in your tribal conflicts and clean up the mess you've made.

It would be nice if Europeans quit acting like spoiled 3 year olds fighting over a toy, but there's no sign that this will happen any time soon. So the USA gets blamed by all because the children don't end up with everything they wanted. Waaaah waaaah waaaah.

Take a good hard look at your history, swallow your pride and deal with it. It's not pretty.

 

[Childlike Empress]

You notice that "you" are "us" after the largest genocide in history, right?

You're really amusing, WildCat. And weren't "you" (collectively) so full of yourselves, I wouldn't have this much fun using the word Yankistanis.

Now back to Ukraine.

 

[WildCat]

You notice that "you" are "us" after the largest genocide in history, right?

No, we are not and never have been.

Again, look in the mirror, look at your history and deal with it.

 

[Klimax]

Tradition.

Precisely.

Because that wasn't caused by a monomaniacal Georgian. No he was totally Russian.

As if it was only one thing they did. Ignorance of history or attempt at white washing it. (And as if who that person was has any relevance on said event)

Yes, it is about pragmatism and it tells us that any deal with Russia is bad one.

By your logic the Czech Republic should also punish Germany because I'm pretty sure that they've tried to exterminate your people and or enslave them. They stole your land, etc. You hold no grudges against Germany?

Your argument holds huge biases. Again, nothing about this deal takes in consideration that Russia has a huge stake in the Ukraine and vice versa. Petty national grievances need not factor into pragmatic decisions.

Are you that ignorant of history? Germany after Second World war got quite punished and many Germans in Sudetland got punished too (forcefully moved)
Germany since that war didn't attempt another idiocies although some groups are still yammering about their grievances.

And I suggest you don't talk about biases, because irony is too big... And Russia might have stake in Ukraine but only through their various actions like big bloody resettlement, colonization and such. History, dear Watson, history.

Oh notice that the people who are marching are Nazi sympathizers. Just wanted to point that out.

Care to substantiate this stupidity? Another baseless assertion, which does nothing but further undermine your position. Stop digging so much, you don't want to end in the core of Earth... not healthy.

 

[Klimax]

btw, there was one of those "who is the greatest threat to peace in the world" surveys lately. USA won of course, with I think 17% average. The country results are available. In Ukraine, Yankistan wins with a whopping 33% with Russia without chance on place 6 (5%). And even the Czechs don't share Klimax' comic-like fear and let reason prevail with Russia (8%) behind China (10%) and Yankistan "winning" on par with North Korea (14%).

A poll... which supports your position, likely cherry picked out of many. Sorry, but any good evidence or is it just nonsense about "comic-like fear"?

But I guess twisting attitudes in my country to suit yourself is to be expected...

 

[L.Y.S.]

Care to substantiate this stupidity? Another baseless assertion, which does nothing but further undermine your position. Stop digging so much, you don't want to end in the core of Earth... not healthy.

I've already provided the evidence amigo. Take your nationalism elsewhere.

In the real world we have to deal with complex geopolitical situations that sometimes don't give us the results we'd like, but their better than the ones we get when we try to fight reality.

The reality of the situation is that Ukraine is hot potato best left to themselves. The EU is selling a hot bill of goods to the Ukraine. A financial deal which would inevitably destroy their economy and displace millions of their workers. No type of comprehensive deal was worked out in consideration of their current economy needs. They replace none of the services offered. Instead, they say join us and die, or let Russia take you and die. So basically their telling Ukraine, you work for us now.

The EU got upset because they realize that Ukraine realizes it's a bad bill of goods being sold at the expense of their citizens. The best thing Ukraine can do right now is play Russia and the EU off each other until they find better trade deals and solutions. Because the one offered by the EU will cripple them for decades and leave them in ruin. There's absolutely no plan to successfully integrate the Ukraine in the EU over the long term, and if I understand correctly you all just got out of a financial crisis. Inviting Ukraine to the EU is inviting massive amounts of debt and uneducated low wage workers. Something that the EU needs less of right now.

 

[L.Y.S.]

A poll... which supports your position, likely cherry picked out of many. Sorry, but any good evidence or is it just nonsense about "comic-like fear"?

But I guess twisting attitudes in my country to suit yourself is to be expected...

Man, did you ever once consider that maybe the Ukraine would be better off without the United States, Europe, or Russia? It's all or nothing for you, EU or die.

If the EU really wanted Ukraine, they would've made a fair trade deal that left the Russian agreements intact or replaced them with comparable/superior agreements. I don't see destroying Ukraine's economy as a good way to start off a relationship. It's almost as if the EU wants to push Ukraine into the arms of Russia. No sensible Ukrainian politician will sign such an idiotic deal. Which is why nationalists have been employed by zealots to wage an illegal coup against a legitimately elected government by the people.

Western Ukrainian zealots know that they are losing the battle against the legitimate government, so they are trying a last ditch effort to block efforts which were inevitably going to happen. Face it, the west gave Ukraine a crappy deal. If you care so much about Ukrainians, hows about the citizens of the EU petition for a better trade deal between the EU and Ukraine? If you're not willing to do that then shut up and stop whining about the EU-Ukraine deal because you don't give a crap about Ukrainians.

 

[spin0]

btw, there was one of those "who is the greatest threat to peace in the world" surveys lately. USA won of course, with I think 17% average. The country results are available. In Ukraine, Yankistan wins with a whopping 33% with Russia without chance on place 6 (5%). And even the Czechs don't share Klimax' comic-like fear and let reason prevail with Russia (8%) behind China (10%) and Yankistan "winning" on par with North Korea (14%).

Irrelevant and off-topic.

 

[spin0]

And I suggest you don't talk about biases, because irony is too big... And Russia might have stake in Ukraine but only through their various actions like big bloody resettlement, colonization and such. History, dear Watson, history.

Here's an interesting piece about the relevant history: Ukraine Is Putin's Favorite Vassal

Oh notice that the people who are marching are Nazi sympathizers. Just wanted to point that out.

Care to substantiate this stupidity? Another baseless assertion, which does nothing but further undermine your position. Stop digging so much, you don't want to end in the core of Earth... not healthy.

It indeed is stupidity and baseless assertion - also a classic propaganda manouver: L.Y.S. is purposefully conflating a one day march in rememberance of a person with EuroMaidan which has lasted over a month protesting Yanukovych not signing the AA.

I've already provided the evidence amigo. Take your nationalism elsewhere.

Your evidence demonstrates that you're purposefully conflating different things: that march is obviously not Euromaidan which is the subject of the thread.

 

[Childlike Empress]

A poll... which supports your position, likely cherry picked out of many. Sorry, but any good evidence or is it just nonsense about "comic-like fear"?

But I guess twisting attitudes in my country to suit yourself is to be expected...

That's not "a poll", it's a most recent one published just a couple of days ago. And it doesn't cherry-pick anything but asks a relevant question that's related to what is discussed here. Nothing more, nothing less. You are entitled to your opinion and as the bias is transparent, all is good and well.

 

[spin0]

The reality of the situation is that Ukraine is hot potato best left to themselves. The EU is selling a hot bill of goods to the Ukraine. A financial deal which would inevitably destroy their economy and displace millions of their workers.

In 2012 Ukraine's exports to the EU were about €14.6 bn (bigger than exports to Russia), and Ukraine's trade with the EU was €37.7 bn which is almost as big as trade with the whole CIS bloc (incl. Russia) at €38.2 bn:

The Association Agreement means even more trade than the existing trade agreements with the EU (e.g. GSP, MFN). How the hell do you assert that even more exports and trade with the EU would "inevitably destroy their economy". That makes no sense at all.

Association Agreement gives Ukraine an access to the EU's over 500 million consumers and market with a combined economy of 12.9 trillion euros - while Russia's union has only 170 million consumers and a combined economy of 1.4 trillion euros. The EU already is one of Ukraine's biggest trading partners, and the AA would be a big long term benefit for Ukraine.

Besides, it's not as if Ukrainian workers aren't displaced also into Russia with about 3.5 million Ukrainian migrants in 2009. Which makes your worry about worker displacement appear very one-sided. Heck, Russia has even hinted using them as leverage and deporting them if Ukraine's leaders choose to make decisions that go against Putin's will.

No type of comprehensive deal was worked out in consideration of their current economy needs. They replace none of the services offered.

Could you elaborate on this? What do you mean by a "type of comprehensive deal"? And what does replacing "services offered" mean?

There's absolutely no plan to successfully integrate the Ukraine in the EU over the long term, and if I understand correctly you all just got out of a financial crisis. Inviting Ukraine to the EU is inviting massive amounts of debt and uneducated low wage workers. Something that the EU needs less of right now.

You seem to be conflating an Association Agreement with a Membership Agreement. As Ukraine has not applied for EU membership your point is irrelevant.

Man, did you ever once consider that maybe the Ukraine would be better off without the United States, Europe, or Russia? It's all or nothing for you, EU or die.
...
I don't see destroying Ukraine's economy as a good way to start off a relationship. It's almost as if the EU wants to push Ukraine into the arms of Russia.

No, it's almost as if you're living on a different planet. Who's been threatening to damage Ukraine's economy? Who's random embargoes of Ukrainian goods, breaking the WTO rules, has caused not only economic damage but also unemployment in Ukraine? Just for one example: Ukraine Candy Maker to Fire Workers Amid Russian Ban.

And it just so happened that Russia lifted embargoes only after Ukraine accepted the high interest loan deal with unfavourable conditions: Russia can call in Ukraine loan if situation warrants - Shuvalov. So for Russia it's stay as Russia's vasall or die, and now with the loan deal Russia has even more leverage to use: they can call off the loans and demand repayment at any time if Ukraine's leaders choose to make decisions that go against Putin's will.

If the EU really wanted Ukraine, they would've made a fair trade deal that left the Russian agreements intact or replaced them with comparable/superior agreements.

An association agreement includes a free trade deal and an access to the EU market with over 500 million consumers and a combined economy of 12.9 trillion euros, and as a "fair trade deal" goes getting a free access to the market is as fair as it can get. Besides, a sovereign country can easily have trade deals and free trade agreements with multiple partners and the AA does not exclude trade with Russia. Heck, my country is EU member and trades with Russia as does many other EU countries.

 

[spin0]

And it doesn't cherry-pick anything but asks a relevant question that's related to what is discussed here.

You do realize that the poll numbers you quoted is about the US, not about the EU, right?

 

[WildCat]

The reality of the situation is that Ukraine is hot potato best left to themselves. The EU is selling a hot bill of goods to the Ukraine. A financial deal which would inevitably destroy their economy and displace millions of their workers

You keep asserting this as if it's a revelation from the FSM Almighty. But for us skeptics do you have any, you know, evidence?