Merged Ukraine erupts in riots and general strike.

[geni]

Genocide doesn't require some great leap in advanced technology. The Cambodian communists butchered ten percent of the population with machetes and sledgehammers.

The actual method of killing is largely irrelevant. Its the kind of problem that you can throw manpower at to solve.

Its the logistics and communications that present a challenge. Sure you can send out a message on horseback to kill all of ethnic group X but that takes time and you risk losing horses to be people who unaccountably don't want to kill their next door neighbours. Radio is something of a game-changer in that respect. As a result genocides prior to that time tended to be farmers vs nomadic peoples since you don't need to tell farmers to kill nomadic people just just need to fail to tell them not to.

 

[Madalch]

I've been to Crimea in 2005, and Lenin statues were abundant. All in lovely, clean city squares, usually the nicest parts of towns. Things are probably still like that down there.

Crimea is much more russophilic than Kyiv or western Ukraine. There were very few Lenins in Kyiv.

And now there's at least one less.

 

[L.Y.S.]

It has always been Russia's plan to reintegrate Ukraine and Belarus. In all honesty, Russia's reintegration of these two countries is perhaps the best of all nations involved. Nothing constructive can come of western incursions on Russian borders, pretty sure it will result in the annihilation of humanity.

 

[McHrozni]

Crimea is much more russophilic than Kyiv or western Ukraine. There were very few Lenins in Kyiv.

And now there's at least one less.

Not so much Russophilic as outright Russian. They colonized the area with Russians when the Crimean Tatars "left for Siberia on their own free will" if you know what I mean.
That said, there weren't any Lenin statues in Lviv either.

It's one of the problems Ukraine has - a substantial Russian minority, who apparently favors servitude to Russia by a substantial margin. Add in a few billion carrots from Kremlin, plus it's hard stick, and you have yourself a major problem.

McHrozni

 

[Virus]

The actual method of killing is largely irrelevant. Its the kind of problem that you can throw manpower at to solve.

Its the logistics and communications that present a challenge. Sure you can send out a message on horseback to kill all of ethnic group X but that takes time and you risk losing horses to be people who unaccountably don't want to kill their next door neighbours. Radio is something of a game-changer in that respect. As a result genocides prior to that time tended to be farmers vs nomadic peoples since you don't need to tell farmers to kill nomadic people just just need to fail to tell them not to.

Ideology matters more than all that stuff. The Tsars were run-of-the-mill autocrats. The totalitarian Communists believed mass-bloodshed would transform the world into a glorious utopia.

 

[Virus]

It has always been Russia's plan to reintegrate Ukraine and Belarus. In all honesty, Russia's reintegration of these two countries is perhaps the best of all nations involved. Nothing constructive can come of western incursions on Russian borders, pretty sure it will result in the annihilation of humanity.

I don't know why Ukraine joining the EU would annihilate humanity.

If the people there want their country economically and politically orientated towards Western Europe rather than the Ex-KGB oligarchs in the Kremlin then it's their right to do so. I understand that they're pissed when they anticipated that it was going to happen.

 

[McHrozni]

It has always been Russia's plan to reintegrate Ukraine and Belarus. In all honesty, Russia's reintegration of these two countries is perhaps the best of all nations involved. Nothing constructive can come of western incursions on Russian borders, pretty sure it will result in the annihilation of humanity.

How is Ukraine, a nation and a state separate from Russia, exercising it's sovereignty in external politics, a western incursion on Russian borders?
If anything, incursion is what Russia is doing to Ukraine.

How is Ukraine served by being a Russian colony? How is that better than independence?

McHrozni

 

[Childlike Empress]

Yesterday George Clooney sent a supporter video to the Klitschkos and they published it on twitter.


Oops, no that wasn't the one.

Should be easy to find though. He calls Timoshenko a "political prisoner" in it.

 

[DC]

heck even I would rather join the EU than Putinstan

 

[L.Y.S.]

I don't know why Ukraine joining the EU would annihilate humanity.

If the people there want their country economically and politically orientated towards Western Europe rather than the Ex-KGB oligarchs in the Kremlin then it's their right to do so. I understand that they're pissed when they anticipated that it was going to happen.

They'll lob nukes at us guaranteed. It's not worth the risk for such a small country. Russia has made it very clear that they are against westerners approaching their boarders. I'm more for letting Russia retake them, and slowly culturally engineering Russia and its new union to the point of integration. That seems like a much better option.

 

[L.Y.S.]

How is Ukraine, a nation and a state separate from Russia, exercising it's sovereignty in external politics, a western incursion on Russian borders?
If anything, incursion is what Russia is doing to Ukraine.

How is Ukraine served by being a Russian colony? How is that better than independence?

McHrozni

Ukraine is too close to Russia's border. WWII only happened 70 years ago. Russia will retaliate if the west gets too close to its borders. It's not worth it over a nation of only 40 million. Sounds bad, but ends well for everyone in the long run. See my reply to virus.

 

[Madalch]

They'll lob nukes at us guaranteed. It's not worth the risk for such a small country. Russia has made it very clear that they are against westerners approaching their boarders. I'm more for letting Russia retake them, and slowly culturally engineering Russia and its new union to the point of integration. That seems like a much better option.

You don't think the Ukrainians should have a say in whether or not they are assimilated?

 

[L.Y.S.]

You don't think the Ukrainians should have a say in whether or not they are assimilated?

Yes, but Russia will not allow for it, and it isn't worth the risk of war for 40 million people. It's very dry cut and simple. Allow for Russia to absorb Ukraine and slowly absorb Russia over time.

 

[timhau]

You don't think the Ukrainians should have a say in whether or not they are assimilated?

No.

 

[McHrozni]

Ukraine is too close to Russia's border. WWII only happened 70 years ago. Russia will retaliate if the west gets too close to its borders. It's not worth it over a nation of only 40 million. Sounds bad, but ends well for everyone in the long run. See my reply to virus.

First of all, it's not Russia's business to "retaliate" against anyone who only exercises their own sovereignty, nor does it have any right whatsoever to demand allegiance from anyone outside of it's borders. Furthermore, given their history with Ukraine, any suggestion it has some special rights over Ukraine are outright disgusting. Retaliation suggests all of that, please use "strike first" instead.

Secondly, Estonia is a member of EU, Eurozone, NATO and less than 200km from Russia's second largest city and former capital. Latvia to the south also shares a border and is a member of EU and NATO. Lithuania and Poland border Kaliningrad oblast' and are also members of EU and NATO. Finland is a member of EU and Eurozone and borders Russian North, Norway is a member of NATO and shares a tiny bit of border with Russia in the far north, but not far from Murmansk, the main base of the Russian North Sea fleet. Ukraine having trade deals with EU changes nothing in that regard.

McHrozni

 

[McHrozni]

They'll lob nukes at us guaranteed. It's not worth the risk for such a small country. Russia has made it very clear that they are against westerners approaching their boarders. I'm more for letting Russia retake them, and slowly culturally engineering Russia and its new union to the point of integration. That seems like a much better option.

Yes, yes, let's bend over and let the dictator expand his hold over threat of war we're actually much better equipped to handle at this point. There is no way this could ever go wrong. History proves it!



McHrozni

 

[L.Y.S.]

First of all, it's not Russia's business to "retaliate" against anyone who only exercises their own sovereignty, nor does it have any right whatsoever to demand allegiance from anyone outside of it's borders. Furthermore, given their history with Ukraine, any suggestion it has some special rights over Ukraine are outright disgusting. Retaliation suggests all of that, please use "strike first" instead.

Secondly, Estonia is a member of EU, Eurozone, NATO and less than 200km from Russia's second largest city and former capital. Latvia to the south also shares a border and is a member of EU and NATO. Lithuania and Poland border Kaliningrad oblast' and are also members of EU and NATO. Finland is a member of EU and Eurozone and borders Russian North, Norway is a member of NATO and shares a tiny bit of border with Russia in the far north, but not far from Murmansk, the main base of the Russian North Sea fleet. Ukraine having trade deals with EU changes nothing in that regard.

McHrozni

Russia already regrets that it lost its hold on the countries mentioned above. Russians are extremely determined not to see a repeat of this occur, especially not with a nation it considers a strong ally and friend. I'm sure that Ukrainians don't feel the same. However it's clear that eastern Ukrainians in part do want a reintegration with Russia. Whereas western Ukrainians want a permanent divorce.

The truth is that a much better option is to allow the Russians to absorb the Ukrainians and culturally absorb the Russians over a time span of decades. Keep in mind that it took less than 20 years of planning to force the Soviet Union to collapse. I highly doubt that a plan to create deeper ties between and east Slav federation would take anything longer than 30-40 years. I consider that a reasonable wait.

There are more pros than cons to slow integration.

Yes, yes, let's bend over and let the dictator expand his hold over threat of war we're actually much better equipped to handle at this point. There is no way this could ever go wrong. History proves it!



McHrozni

We've allowed dictators to expand several times, many of them sponsored by the United States government. I'm not saying allow for Russia to aggressively expand. In fact, we've done a good job of quarantining them already. They've lost their prized possessions in eastern Europe. However, I somehow have a hunch that having the capability to assault Russia's western border won't be perceived very well by the Russian people.

Russia hasn't been attacked and lost tens of millions of people to western aggression in the last 200 years. Nope, it never happened.

Again, we've engineered the collapse of the Soviet Union in 20 years. I fail to see why we can't slowly engineer their slow integration over 30 or 40 years.

 

[McHrozni]

Russia already regrets that it lost its hold on the countries mentioned above. Russians are extremely determined not to see a repeat of this occur, especially not with a nation it considers a strong ally and friend. I'm sure that Ukrainians don't feel the same. However it's clear that eastern Ukrainians in part do want a reintegration with Russia. Whereas western Ukrainians want a permanent divorce.

The truth is that a much better option is to allow the Russians to absorb the Ukrainians and culturally absorb the Russians over a time span of decades. Keep in mind that it took less than 20 years of planning to force the Soviet Union to collapse. I highly doubt that a plan to create deeper ties between and east Slav federation would take anything longer than 30-40 years. I consider that a reasonable wait.

There are more pros than cons to slow integration.

So, um, you're advocating trampling the rights and wishes of the people of western Ukraine to the wishes of Russian minority in eastern Ukraine, because ...?

If east Slav federation were possible, it would happen by now. Russia had two shots at it, one was about 200 year stint under Russian empire, the other was a 70 year one under USSR. The present situation proves, beyond a shadow of a doubt, they failed miserably twice. Why do you think it is now suddenly possible in a sixth of that time. Why do you think it's even desirable? Why does Russia deserve another shot?

I'm not saying allow for Russia to aggressively expand.

No. This is exactly what you're saying.

In fact, we've done a good job of quarantining them already. They've lost their prized possessions in eastern Europe. However, I somehow have a hunch that having the capability to assault Russia's western border won't be perceived very well by the Russian people.

As was pointed out to you before, Russia has no right over Ukraine. Furthermore, we already have the capability to assault Russia's western border, if we desired. Thirdly, no one is even remotely suggesting a war with Russia, this is a fabrication, to justify Russian conquest of Ukraine. A particularly pathetic excuse, seeing as Russia would be well placed for an aggression towards the West.

Russia hasn't been attacked and lost tens of millions of people to western aggression in the last 200 years. Nope, it never happened.

Western in the modern sense? No, it wasn't. It was saved by the mutual interests of the West in a few of such wars, Russia stood no chance alone in those conflicts. We can open a new thread about that, if you want.

Again, we've engineered the collapse of the Soviet Union in 20 years. I fail to see why we can't slowly engineer their slow integration over 30 or 40 years.

Appeal to ignorance noted.

McHrozni

 

[Childlike Empress]

U.S. Assistant Secretary of State Nuland arrives at opposition rally in Kyiv

[...] Nuland is treating protesters with cookies, biscuits and bread from a big package. She is being accompanied by U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt. Demonstrators are cheering Nuland with joyful shouts, some are chanting "God bless you."

Nuland also approached Interior Forces troops deployed at the square and also offered them cookies, which the soldiers accepted silently.

We all know which side has cookies, don't we?

 

[Klimax]

Russia already regrets that it lost its hold on the countries mentioned above. Russians are extremely determined not to see a repeat of this occur, especially not with a nation it considers a strong ally and friend. I'm sure that Ukrainians don't feel the same. However it's clear that eastern Ukrainians in part do want a reintegration with Russia. Whereas western Ukrainians want a permanent divorce.

The truth is that a much better option is to allow the Russians to absorb the Ukrainians and culturally absorb the Russians over a time span of decades. Keep in mind that it took less than 20 years of planning to force the Soviet Union to collapse. I highly doubt that a plan to create deeper ties between and east Slav federation would take anything longer than 30-40 years. I consider that a reasonable wait.

There are more pros than cons to slow integration.



We've allowed dictators to expand several times, many of them sponsored by the United States government. I'm not saying allow for Russia to aggressively expand. In fact, we've done a good job of quarantining them already. They've lost their prized possessions in eastern Europe. However, I somehow have a hunch that having the capability to assault Russia's western border won't be perceived very well by the Russian people.

Russia hasn't been attacked and lost tens of millions of people to western aggression in the last 200 years. Nope, it never happened.

Again, we've engineered the collapse of the Soviet Union in 20 years. I fail to see why we can't slowly engineer their slow integration over 30 or 40 years.

1938. We have been there already... it applies to your all points including about "being attacked". We don't forget or forgive that easy as you. (1968) And we were never under direct and complete control by Russian.

So then people of Ukraine know much better what pros(if any) and cons of their decisions and how much they love Russia...