Merged Ukraine erupts in riots and general strike.

[Virus]

Things seemed to be going peachy with the EU negotiations. Ukrainian leaders boasted that they could sell Russian gas to Europe cheaper than the Russians.

But Putin put his boot down. Take the EU carrot, get the Russian stick. So the Ukrainian leaders backed out. Now people are furious and demanding early elections. The Ukrainian economy is in the doldrums and the EU is a prestigious club to belong too.

Russia has a long history of brutality with Ukraine. Like when the communists deliberately engineered a famine-genocide. People resorted to cannibalism. They remember that stuff.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25173719

 

[McHrozni]

Ukraine has a problem in the form of a substantial Russian minority in the east and south. A very large percentage of those people would prefer a union with Russia or Russia-serving Ukraine. It's an offshoot of Soviet colonialism, which offers no good solutions. I hope for the best, but fear the worst.

McHrozni

 

[Dcdrac]

Ukraine has a problem in the form of a substantial Russian minority in the east and south. A very large percentage of those people would prefer a union with Russia or Russia-serving Ukraine. It's an offshoot of Soviet colonialism, which offers no good solutions. I hope for the best, but fear the worst.

McHrozni

Historically the Russians have seen the Ukraine as their backyard and still do, which will make it difficult for them to accept it as a member of the EU, consequentley they will do everything possible to prevent the Ukraine joining the EU.

 

[geni]

But Putin put his boot down. Take the EU carrot, get the Russian stick. So the Ukrainian leaders backed out

I'm sure the bribes laundered through the limited liability partnerships nominally based on Cardiff of all places had nothing to do with it.

 

[L.Y.S.]

Things seemed to be going peachy with the EU negotiations. Ukrainian leaders boasted that they could sell Russian gas to Europe cheaper than the Russians.

But Putin put his boot down. Take the EU carrot, get the Russian stick. So the Ukrainian leaders backed out. Now people are furious and demanding early elections. The Ukrainian economy is in the doldrums and the EU is a prestigious club to belong too.

Russia has a long history of brutality with Ukraine. Like when the communists deliberately engineered a famine-genocide. People resorted to cannibalism. They remember that stuff.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25173719

The capitalist czar regime also brutally persecuted and suppressed the cossacks. Your point? Russia sucks no matter what regime gets in power. Stop amounting this to communism. This is a cultural problem for Russia.

From a Russian prospective I can see why they don't want the EU and NATO in their backyard. That would be a very stupid move. Plus Ukraine is very split over EU/Russia. The best thing that could happen to Ukraine is that Russia has a massive shift in political power. Which won't happen.

 

[Virus]

Stop amounting this to communism.

I didn't but if you wanna go there, the Tsars were small-fry compared to what the communists did.

 

[L.Y.S.]

I didn't but if you wanna go there, the Tsars were small-fry compared to what the communists did.

The Czars also had Renaissance technology. I'm sure if they had machine guns, tanks, and armored equipment that they would've killed just as many people. Point being that Russia manages to kill off tens of millions of its citizens every century. It's something endemic to their culture.

 

[Virus]

The Czars also had Renaissance technology. I'm sure if they had machine guns, tanks, and armored equipment that they would've killed just as many people. Point being that Russia manages to kill off tens of millions of its citizens every century. It's something endemic to their culture.

How much technology do you need to starve people?

 

[L.Y.S.]

How much technology do you need to starve people?

He didn't take away the tractors used to plow the land?

 

[McHrozni]

The capitalist czar regime also brutally persecuted and suppressed the cossacks. Your point? Russia sucks no matter what regime gets in power. Stop amounting this to communism. This is a cultural problem for Russia.

That's very true. Communists were like they were to a considerable extent because they came to power in Russia. There is a bit of a cause and effect question here obviously, because such people couldn't and didn't come to power almost anywhere else in Europe, barring extreme circumstances (major war).

From a Russian prospective I can see why they don't want the EU and NATO in their backyard. That would be a very stupid move. Plus Ukraine is very split over EU/Russia. The best thing that could happen to Ukraine is that Russia has a massive shift in political power. Which won't happen.

Russia has reverted it's economic system to something similar to what it was before the Revolution, exporting mostly comodities. They still have some military and space technology, but they are quite far from cutting edge. They have little else to offer. They know this, and they know very well they can't attract countries into their sphere, so they're doing all they can to keep those that remain. They're just staving off the inevitable, at Ukraine's expense in this case.

I hope Ukrainians will be smart enough to see Russia is on the loosing side of history again. Who knows, maybe a shift away from Russia would herald change in Russia as well, empower the opposition and whatnot.

McHrozni

 

[geni]

I didn't but if you wanna go there, the Tsars were small-fry compared to what the communists did.

So how did life expectancies actually end up increasing under the communists? Even Stalin couldn't kill people fast enough to make up for improvements elsewhere.

From a purely objective viewpoint its really rather impressive how nasty the Tsars were.

 

[Childlike Empress]

Here are two articles about the German influence on those developments. The first takes a look at the whole opposition movement with focus on the ultra-right neo-nazi elements.

[...] To gain influence in the country, Germany has for years been supporting the "pro-European" alliance in the Ukraine. The alliance includes not only conservative parties, but also forces from the extreme right - because of their strength, particularly in western Ukraine, where a cult around former Nazi collaborators is manifesting itself. The All-Ukrainian Union "Svoboda" party is particularly embedded in the national-chauvinist milieu, under the influence of this cult. Over the past few days, the party's leader has called for a "revolution" in Kiev. [...]

Those groups aren't openly supported, of course, but will also profit from the vast amount of money the Konrad-Adenauer-Stiftung and others let flow to support this "revolution", organizing busses, propaganda material etc. Berlin's man in the Ukraine is Vitali Klitschko, as this May 2012 article describes in detail.

[...] According to the internet portal of the CDU politician, Werner Jostmeier (from North Rhine-Westphalia) "the Konrad Adenauer Foundation has assigned" the prominent professional Ukrainian boxer, Vitali Klitschko, the task of "helping to organize and establish a Christian conservative party in the Ukraine."[1] Jostmeier, who, for many years, has been handling the question of the Ukraine - particularly as chair of the German delegation to the EU "Committee of the Regions" - considers that Klitschko "takes his position as leader of the party (...) very seriously." He wishes him "continued success," and hopes he will become "a political heavyweight" in the Ukraine. [...]

Klitschko has called for "over a million people" to come to the protests today, which must have failed miserably as DER SPIEGEL speaks of 200 thousand, which means it may have been a fourth of that. The same article (German) also says that Klitschko isn't deemed fit yet for his task and will need some further training, rethorically and politically. Seems that was it for this time.

Found an interesting pic on twitter, btw, from Dec 1. Go to any "western" mass demonstration and try to find a scene like that.

 

[timhau]

From a purely objective viewpoint its really rather impressive how nasty the Tsars were.

That they were -- and backwards and incompetent too. Yet, as far as the oppressive machinery is concerned, they really were small potatoes. The Cheka only took a few months to reach the same body count as the Okhrana had in all of its 50+ years of existence.

 

[L.Y.S.]

That they were -- and backwards and incompetent too. Yet, as far as the oppressive machinery is concerned, they really were small potatoes. The Cheka only took a few months to reach the same body count as the Okhrana had in all of its 50+ years of existence.

They lacked the same machinery timhau. If they had the same level of technology in the 1800s there would've been just as much dead.

 

[timhau]

They lacked the same machinery timhau. If they had the same level of technology in the 1800s there would've been just as much dead.

What machinery, to be exact? What hi-tech gadgets did the Cheka use that the Okhrana didn't have? We're talking about an organization that existed from the 1860s right up to 1917. By early 1918, the October revolution body count had surpassed that of the entire Okhrana history.

The point isn't that the Okhrana was somehow a benign organization, it wasn't. It's just that for all its flaws, it never practiced outright terror the way Lenin and his comrades did.

 

[L.Y.S.]

What machinery, to be exact? What hi-tech gadgets did the Cheka use that the Okhrana didn't have? We're talking about an organization that existed from the 1860s right up to 1917. By early 1918, the October revolution body count had surpassed that of the entire Okhrana history.

The point isn't that the Okhrana was somehow a benign organization, it wasn't. It's just that for all its flaws, it never practiced outright terror the way Lenin and his comrades did.

You've made a very fair point in the highlighted, I agree.

 

[LSSBB]

Well, the mob in Ukraine certainly voted on their view of Lenin today.

 

[Madalch]

I saw that statue over the summer, and thought, "I'm a bit surprised that that's still there..."

 

[McHrozni]

I saw that statue over the summer, and thought, "I'm a bit surprised that that's still there..."

I've been to Crimea in 2005, and Lenin statues were abundant. All in lovely, clean city squares, usually the nicest parts of towns. Things are probably still like that down there.
One was reaching his hand out to the sea initially, but there was a McDonalds' in the way by then

McHrozni

 

[Virus]

Genocide doesn't require some great leap in advanced technology. The Cambodian communists butchered ten percent of the population with machetes and sledgehammers.