UK TV debate

[Francesca R]

As in 2010 there is almost no difference between Labour, Conservative and Lib Dem on "austerity" (fiscal contraction), the difference is in the share of this borne by tax rises versus spending cuts but both of those are fiscal contraction (despite those on the left saying tax hikes don't damage growth and those on the right saying cuts don't).

The smaller left wing parties and particularly the regional-nationalist ones SNP and Plaid Cymru do IIRC want substantially less fiscal contraction than Con-Lab-Lib. Indeed in respect of spending it was quite possible at times to run away with the idea that Wood and Sturgeon saw getting more public money for Wales and Scotland as ranking above any other priority. I didn't think that emphasis played so well in a national debate actually. But arguably those two were not really playing to the nation.

 

[Craig B]

... Indeed in respect of spending it was quite possible at times to run away with the idea that Wood and Sturgeon saw getting more public money for Wales and Scotland as ranking above any other priority.

Can you please refer me to your sources for that, before I make any comment?

 

[surreptitious57]

Nigel Farage on that particular occasion had to vacate immediately after an angry mob surrounded him demanding he go home because they did not want him spreading racism in Scotland. There is actual television footage of this so it is a documented fact no matter what anyone says. Now Scotland has absolutely no racism within her borders at all which is why he was so unwelcome. I would seriously suggest one study its history over the last four hundred odd years if one really thinks that as one might be in for a bit of a shock when they do. Now till Scotland does get independence it remains a part of the United Kingdom which means he has much right as anyone to be there if he so wishes. The English on occasion do the same thing to him as well but two wrongs do not make a right

As far as the debate itself was concerned it was tight but the most impressive leader was Nicola Sturgeon. Nigel Farage let him self down with his comment on treatment for foreigners with HIV. And Leanne Wood rightly called him out on it. But it would never happen in this country any way so there was no reason for him to actually say it. UKIP shall not get many seats any way in spite of their popularity and that is because of the rather antiquated first past the post system
Now if the opinion polls remain unchanged until polling day the best scenario shall be a Labour SNP coalition. The two parties shall just have to put differences
aside and focus on running the country instead which they could for if the Tories and Lib Dems can do it then so can they as they are much closer ideologically

 

[Craig B]

Nigel Farage on that particular occasion had to vacate immediately after an angry mob surrounded him demanding he go home because they did not want him spreading racism in Scotland. There is actually television footage of this so it is a documented fact no matter what anyone says. Now Scotland has absolutely no racism within her borders at all which is why he was so unwelcome. Though I would seriously suggest you study its history over the last four hundred odd years if you really think that as you might be in for a bit of a shock when you do. Until Scotland does get independence it is still a part of the United Kingdom which means he has as much right as anyone to be there should he so wish. The English on occasion do the same thing to him but two wrongs do not make a right

I'm totally confused by that paragraph. Of course there is racism in Scotland, but in general the leftist national democrats who comprise the bulk of the independence movement are not xenophobic, and the popular culture here seems much less so than in England. I think I can truthfully say that, but racism we have aplenty, and religious bigotry too.

Now if the opinion polls remain unchanged till polling day the best scenario will be a Labour / SNP coalition. The two parties will just have to put their differences aside and focus on running the country instead. Which they could for if the Tories and Lib Dems can do it then so can they as they are much closer ideologically

Absolutely not. That would mean that SNP Westminster MPs would enter the Cabinet and participate in governing the UK. I simply can't imagine this happening. What may happen is that the SNP will not vote against a Labour government in confidence or finance motions in the Commons. That would permit a Labour government to remain in being.

The SNP would demand certain things in return. According to Nicola Sturgeon in a speech I heard her make yesterday at a demonstration in Glasgow, that would include cancellation of any renewal of Trident on the Clyde. She was positive about that, stated in front of a large open air demonstration, and I don't think she could go back on it, even if she wanted to, which I don't believe she does.

 

[Francesca R]

if the Tories and Lib Dems can do it then so can [Labour and the SNP] as they are much closer ideologically

Disagreed. I am pretty sure Labour is closer to both the LibDems and the Conservatives than any of those three are to the SNP.

 

[Craig B]

Disagreed. I am pretty sure Labour is closer to both the LibDems and the Conservatives than any of those three are to the SNP.

Yes. That's why Murphy latched so quickly on to the Telegraph story about Sturgeon's alleged remarks to the French diplomats. The three establishment parties seem extremely disturbed about the SNP gaining a majority of Scottish Commons seats. I expect more signs of panic from them all.

 

[MikeG]

........I expect more signs of panic from them all.

So do I, but they are quite right to be horrified at the prospect of an anti-Union party forming even a tacit part of the governance of the Nation they are trying to dis-assemble. In the same way the EU probably aren't that keen on having UKIP on board, but would be nauseated at the (hypothetical and impossible) prospect of UKIP holding the balance of power in Europe.

The very real prospect of the SNP propping up a minority Labour government in this country could lead to decades in the wilderness for Labour. Far left nationalist politics allied to the most unpopular leader in Labour's recent history would scar them in the way trade union activities did in the 70's.

All nationalist parties are a scourge.

 

[Craig B]

So do I, but they are quite right to be horrified at the prospect of an anti-Union party forming even a tacit part of the governance of the Nation they are trying to dis-assemble.

So anti-Unionism is not a valid viewpoint in the UK? News to me. If the unionists don't want anti-Unionist parties participating in the affairs of the UK they went about this in a strange way during the referendum campaign. They wanted to keep the Scots. Well, they've got us; so now they presume to tell us how to vote!

All nationalist parties are a scourge.

Sorry about that. Some people think domination by a distant Unionist establishment consisting of parties playing musical chairs in Westminster is the real scourge.

 

[skeptichaggis]

scotland sadly does have racism

Craig b a little above writes that Scotland does have racism in reply to a poster who claims the opposite. Mr B is absolutely right ,I come from a deprived working class area' methil in fife, and I can safely say casual racism is alive and well. The papers commonly have accounts of court cases in which the motive-often for assault-is clearly race. It is nevertheless clear that racism is far less of a problem in Scotland than in england. There are of course many reasons for this and it is by no means clear which reason ,population size, society,lack of insulated ghettos,economy,education or other is the root cause for the difference. Me I come from a highland traveller family and have experienced bigotry and it(obviously) is not pleasant-im sure you have heard terms like tinker or pikey. Mr B also alluded to sectarian bigotry and again he is sadly right.

 

[surreptitious57]

The reason why Labour and the Tories are scared of the SNP is because if the opinion polls remain unchanged they will be the largest minority party after the Election. This means that they will hold the balance of power but no one wants to form a coalition with them since they want to break up the United Kingdom There are however a few flaws with this line of reasoning. Number One : there is not going to be an other vote on independence within the next five years so
the Union shall still remain intact. The SNP is not going to demand it as a condition of coalition. Number Two : the country needs a government regardless of
who it is composed of. Party politics is not therefore the issue and so should not be used to hijack that process. Number Three : Labour and the Tories do not
want the United Kingdom to be broken up. Though if Scotland votes for independence at some point in the future there is nothing they can do about that. So they should respect the wishes of the Scottish people and accept the consequences whatever they may be. In point of fact it is nothing to do with the English
if Scotland wants independence anyway. So it seems Labour and the Tories believe in democracy long as the results go their way but that is not how it works
So if the maths adds up and the parties in question can work together then so they should. Everything else at this point in time should be superfluous to that

 

[CapelDodger]

The reason why Labour and the Tories are scared of the SNP is because if the opinion polls remain unchanged they will be the largest minority party after the Election. This means that they will hold the balance of power but no one wants to form a coalition with them since they want to break up the United Kingdom

A couple of problems there.

The Referendum has drawn the poison of independence. That's off the table for a generation. That's one reason why the SNP is bulldozing its way through the political landscape. It's like Labour after ditching Clause 4.

The SNP doesn't want to form a coalition. Neither does anybody else, I'd have thought. We're not talking about some Lib Dem ministers who've come along the same Oxford Union path as the Tories and Blairies, we're talking hard-bitten Scottish political street-fighters. Inveterate table-bangers.

An understanding will suffice. It isn't happening with the Tories; the SNP understand them all too well. So it'll be with Labour, who nobody quite understands yet.

I lost the last shred of sympathy for Milliband when he leapt on that Torygraph front-pager. Utterly crass.

 

[CapelDodger]

The very real prospect of the SNP propping up a minority Labour government in this country could lead to decades in the wilderness for Labour.

Or a Labour-SNP alliance government might work out well, while doing wonders for Parliament and standards of debate. Now there's a nasty prospect for the Tories.

Far left

Oh dear. Really?

All nationalist parties are a scourge.

How do you feel about a United Europe?

 

[CapelDodger]

Yes. That's why Murphy latched so quickly on to the Telegraph story about Sturgeon's alleged remarks to the French diplomats. The three establishment parties seem extremely disturbed about the SNP gaining a majority of Scottish Commons seats. I expect more signs of panic from them all.

There's no map for where we're heading. You can understand why career politicians are getting a queasy feeling.

It is, of course, much more comfortable for the SNP. They don't recognise Oxford Union protocols for one thing.

 

[Craig B]

The Referendum has drawn the poison of independence. That's off the table for a generation. That's one reason why the SNP is bulldozing its way through the political landscape. It's like Labour after ditching Clause 4.

I'm not in agreement with that. It suggests that the immense surge of support for and recruitment to the SNP came from people opposed to independence. I'm pretty certain that's not true. It seems to have come from supporters of independence wishing to continue the campaign after the No result.

It also has to be recalled that a significant number of people voted No through fear, not through love of the Union. They thought that money would be worthless, pensions would not be paid, and so on. These people are seeking to punish the Unionist parties, as are the Yes voters.

But you are also right in implying that the SNP is taking over as the party of choice for Left social democratic voters, very numerous in Scotland, a role which the Labour Party relinquished under Blair.

A satirical comment on the Sturgeon smear, evolved upon that theme of Labour losing its political role.

 

[skeptichaggis]

scottish independance is NOT of the table for a generation

Before I start I confess I have a bias in this matter. Scottish independence contrary to what anyone ,anytime says is not a once in a generation cause. Democracy allows people to change there minds to ask for another referendum on any matter anytime. So long as a sizeable percentage of a nations voters concour on a matter they can make the argument for another vote. One advantage yes voters have is that they only need to win once and the no voters have to win everytime. I for one want nothing politically to do with any system that places clearly unwanted nuclear weapons in Scotland and thus subscribes to the lunatic notion of mutually assured destruction.

 

[Francesca R]

The Referendum has drawn the poison of independence. That's off the table for a generation.

I don't think independence for Scotland is a dead issue, in that if there was another referendum, yes could prevail. It is dead in the sense that neither big party will concede to another referendum any time soon though, and given that, the SNP will not demand one (because failure to obtain one is not a great outcome).

The SNP doesn't want to form a coalition.

Agreed. The main reason seems to be fear of agreeing to abandon policies, which is not limited to the SNP. For example the SNP would with very high probability have to formally agree to keep Trident, which should not surprise anybody but they are probably not ready to do.

Neither does anybody else, I'd have thought.

So it seems. Apparently it is more rational for small parties to stay out of them. That will hopefully change over time.

Incidentally I disagree about any sentiment that Miliband appears "non PM material" from wherever it comes.

 

[MikeG]

....... Democracy allows people to change there minds to ask for another referendum on any matter anytime......

Keep on and on asking voting until they eventually come up with the result you seek, then, never vote on the subject again. Is that about it?

 

[Architect]

I don't think independence for Scotland is a dead issue, in that if there was another referendum, yes could prevail. It is dead in the sense that neither big party will concede to another referendum any time soon though, and given that, the SNP will not demand one (because failure to obtain one is not a great outcome).

I disagree; if the SNP do win a sizeable vote in the General Election then they may well seek one on the basis that a predictable Westminster failure to do so can be played in the (Scottish) press as yet another example of Scotland and Scottish political opinion being ignored. That then bolsters the SNP hand in the run up to the Scottish Parliamentary and local government elections a little down the line.

Meanwhile I cannot help but notice that Frenchgate has suddenly disappeared from the front pages of all but the Telegraph, presumably on the basis that it's almost certainly a fabrication which has backfired. It says a lot that even the Daily Fail has it on the backburner.

 

[CapelDodger]

Before I start I confess I have a bias in this matter. Scottish independence contrary to what anyone ,anytime says is not a once in a generation cause.

A referendum is a once in a political generation event (~12-15 years). One campaign is great fun but it soon grows old.

Independence remains a cause but as a safely distant aspiration. If the SNP kept re-visiting the subject they'd re-consign themselves to the single-issue wackjob category they've escaped from to become, as Craig B says, the Left social-democratic alternative.

 

[CapelDodger]

Incidentally I disagree about any sentiment that Miliband appears "non PM material" from wherever it comes.

I don't hold with such thinking. My problem with Milliband is his instant belief in a Torygraph story, of all things, presumably because he so wanted it to be true. No right-thinking person wants to associate themselves with the Torygraph - but Milliband was happy to. What a dick.