UK Local Elections

[Rolfe]

It's perfectly OK to write about England here. Obviously. You're the one who's trying to prevent people talking about a particular aspect of the topic on the card, not us.

You won't get the slightest objection from any of the Scottish posters to anything you want to say about the local elections in England.

 

[Craig B]

You think that's a valid point? It's OK to write about Scotland in the UK thread, but not England. I see, fine. And how do you think the mods would deal with any attempt to start another thread on the council elections?

It's a valid point addressed to yourself, even if not valid in general. It is you who think it's not OK to write about Scotland in the UK thread. Perhaps other people are not of that view. I will not presume to guess what the Mods think.

 

[Worm]

The fake news is still coming. Kezia Dugdale has announced "the council elections show that people are turning away from the SNP." This gets in the paper as if it's something that has actually happened.

The official tally of first-preference votes from last week is now in. The SNP got 610,454 votes, which is an increase of 21% over the same figure from the 2012 council elections.

To be fair, the increase in the number of votes is simply a function of the fact that there were more votes cast - 21% more in fact. The SNP share of the overall vote (which is a slightly meaningless figure..but hey ho) didn't significantly change. They got 32.3% of the first preference votes in both 2012 and 2017.

The Tories more than doubled their first preference votes. (from 206,599 to 478,073) and increased their share of the vote from 13.3% to 25.3%. So they did make clear gains.

What certainly isn't true, is that people are 'turning away from the SNP'. The swing to the Conservatives was almost entirely from Labour and Independents/Other in terms of votes, share of the vote and seats.

By way of clarification, I offer this illustration.

 

[Rolfe]

To be fair, the increase in the number of votes is simply a function of the fact that there were more votes cast - 21% more in fact. The SNP share of the overall vote (which is a slightly meaningless figure..but hey ho) didn't significantly change. They got 32.3% of the first preference votes in both 2012 and 2017.

The Tories more than doubled their first preference votes. (from 206,599 to 478,073) and increased their share of the vote from 13.3% to 25.3%. So they did make clear gains.

What certainly isn't true, is that people are 'turning away from the SNP'. The swing to the Conservatives was almost entirely from Labour and Independents/Other in terms of votes, share of the vote and seats.

Yes, you are of course absolutely right. (The complete set of figures wasn't available when I made that earlier post.) But when any party gets more people voting for them on that scale, you can't then come and say that voters are turning away from the party.

The SNP's share of the vote was level with its 2012 figure, so again no support for the "turning away from the party" assertion.

The Tories most certainly made clear gains - from Labour. As I've been saying in a number of earlier posts. The Tories pretended they were fighting the SNP when they were in fact competing with Labour for the hard-core unionist vote. That's why they campaigned on the single issue of "no second referendum". Of course Labour also campaigned on that issue almost exclusively. The leaflets were a bit surreal.

The Tories won that fight. They grabbed a huge pile of previously Labour voters and went from being a long way behind Labour to overtaking them (just). Meanwhile the SNP sailed on undamaged.

This is where the fake news comes in. The headlines go on and on about how well the Conservatives did. Sure they came from a poor third to just sneaking second place. Well done them. Then the headlines go on and on about how badly the SNP did. Except it didn't. The BBC even fiddled the figures quite shamelessly so they could report the SNP as losing council seats when they had in fact gained six.

Then in the minds of the public who are only half paying attention, this somehow comes out as the Tories having beaten the SNP, or at the very least taken votes off them.

The absolute cracker is what I posted in the post you quoted, when the leader of the party who were absolutely pasted by the Tories, who lost a hell of a lot of seats and votes, the party that used to run Scotland as a one party state and is now firmly the third party, runs to the press with a quote that "people are turning away from the SNP."

And instead of saying, go back to school and learn some basic arithmetic Kezia, the papers just print it as "news".

ETA: Nice illustration, perfectly sums up what happened.

 

[Rolfe]

Given that both Labour and Conservatives had one policy and one policy only on their council election leaflets ("send Nicola Sturgeon a message that we don't want another referendum") while the SNP and the Greens campaigned on local issues, it's quite an interesting set of results.

And yes, I got the mass leaflets with Ruth's scowling face and pointy finger shouting "No second referendum", and I delivered the SNP leaflets which were all about bringing jobs to the area and stuff like that. At the SNP meetings before the council elections we were firmly told that this was about the council and local services and nothing to do with independence and we weren't even to mention independence or referendums unless someone brought up the subject. But nobody told the Tories or Labour about that.

So. Turnout goes up quite a lot. I understand there is evidence of differential turnout, in that the shouty Labour and Tory leaflets got the vote out in the hard-line "no surrender" areas. But the SNP vote share doesn't dip and the Green vote share increases. I understand that if you aggregate the parties' vote as pro or anti independence you find a swing to the pro-independence side of 0.4%

The anti-independence parties framed this council election as a verdict on an independence referendum. They lost. You can't claim the Tory increase in votes, standing on that ticket, without at the same time taking the hit on Labour votes, when Labour also stood on that ticket. They lost, but they're still trying to claim victory.

And the compliant press and broadcasting media just let them do it.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

It's perfectly OK to write about England here. Obviously. You're the one who's trying to prevent people talking about a particular aspect of the topic on the card, not us.

You won't get the slightest objection from any of the Scottish posters to anything you want to say about the local elections in England.

You would think posters who want to talk about something would do so instead of repeating telling us what they don't want to talk about because apparently they can't help themselves from saying inflammatory things about the topic. Very odd indeed.

 

[Rolfe]

Yeah, I was thinking that. I'd be very happy to read some analysis of the local election results in England. I might actually learn something.

 

[Aber]

Yeah, I was thinking that. I'd be very happy to read some analysis of the local election results in England. I might actually learn something.

The SNP won less seats in England than UKIP.

 

[MikeG]

The SNP won less seats in England than UKIP.

They won less seats in the UK than the Lib Dems. They lost control of the only two councils they ran. But no.............they must remain the sole topic of conversation.

 

[Craig B]

They won less seats in the UK than the Lib Dems. They lost control of the only two councils they ran. But no.............they must remain the sole topic of conversation.

They were standing only in a small part of the UK, while the LD are a UK wide Party. No party in Scotland controls any local authority by a majority. The SNP overtook Lab in Glasgow as Party forming an administration, with possible Green support. That is immensely significant.

I recommend that these facts should remain the sole topic of conversation. That way, nonsensical statements about them may be corrected. What do you think?

ETA. According to the new SNP leader in Glasgow, her party's priorities as council administration are not the destruction of the Union, but

SNP councillors are “ready to start and hit the ground running”, she added, saying actions would include “getting much better bins in the streets to make our city much cleaner” and repairing potholes in the roads and “getting the pavements fixed to make a much safer city” for walking. Ms Aitken also said the SNP would be looking to replace old lampposts with LED ones to create a “greener city”, and would seek to improve wifi connections across Glasgow.​

 

[Rolfe]

They won less seats in the UK than the Lib Dems. They lost control of the only two councils they ran. But no.............they must remain the sole topic of conversation.

It's extremely difficult for any party to achieve an overall majority of seats in a council when a PR system is used for the election. And no party managed it this time. Hardly unexpected. It's a bit of a fluke it ever happens at all.

The SNP was the largest party in 16 councils. Once the horse-trading is done it will be in administration in a fair number of these. But hey, congratulations for finding one metric that can be used to promote the agenda that the SNP lost ground. Up on votes, up on seats, massively up on size of lead over second-placed party, but didn't get an overall majority in some councils. Like every other party didn't. Dearie me.

If this is the sole topic of conversation in this thread, whose fault is that? I'd say, the people who don't introduce any other topics. But hey, they don't. So it seems the thread would die if this discussion weren't taking place. Why keep coming back to it then, if this annoys you so much?

But take heart. After Scotland is independent, you'll be able to claim any discussion of Scottish politics is off topic in any thread about the politics of England/Wales. And you'll be right. Cherish that thought.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

It's extremely difficult for any party to achieve an overall majority of seats in a council when a PR system is used for the election. And no party managed it this time. Hardly unexpected. It's a bit of a fluke it ever happens at all.

The SNP was the largest party in 16 councils. Once the horse-trading is done it will be in administration in a fair number of these. But hey, congratulations for finding one metric that can be used to promote the agenda that the SNP lost ground. Up on votes, up on seats, massively up on size of lead over second-placed party, but didn't get an overall majority in some councils. Like every other party didn't. Dearie me.

If this is the sole topic of conversation in this thread, whose fault is that? I'd say, the people who don't introduce any other topics. But hey, they don't. So it seems the thread would die if this discussion weren't taking place. Why keep coming back to it then, if this annoys you so much?

But take heart. After Scotland is independent, you'll be able to claim any discussion of Scottish politics is off topic in any thread about the politics of England/Wales. And you'll be right. Cherish that thought.

I he still talking about what he doesn't want to talk about? Maybe if he had something else to talk about other than how he can't stand Scottish people talking about Scotland there would be some other debate going on in the thread.

Let's try.. I see Farage still gets on TV to spout his right wing filth despite being a complete nonentity with nothing worthwhile to say on any topic other than how much he hates thing. Oh wait...

 

[MikeG]

.......But take heart. After Scotland is independent, you'll be able to claim any discussion of Scottish politics is off topic in any thread about the politics of England/Wales. And you'll be right. Cherish that thought.

That's not the way it works. You see, what happens is you look at the title of the thread, and you read the OP. That sets the topic for the thread. It's really pretty straightforward. So, if you see a thread with a title "Indyref", that will be on the subject of Scottish Independence, wouldn't you say? And a thread with the title............just plucking one out of the air.........."UK local elections" would be on local council elections in the UK. You see how it works? Obviously, as the route to Scottish independence isn't in any conceivable way through the local election channel, it would be just plain silly to be spending page after page discussing Scottish independence in such a thread. Silly, and off topic.

 

[Rolfe]

However, as you somehow failed to persuade either the Scottish Conservative party of the Scottish Labour party of that point, they spent the entire local election campaign banging on about that single point. As a result the coverage and analysis of the local election results in Scotland has been entirely about that one topic.

If you care to read the posts you're complaining about, I think you'll find they are all precisely about the UK local government elections, albeit about a part of the UK you'd rather not talk about.

If you want to discuss a different aspect of the subject on the card, feel free to post something. If you don't, why do you keep returning to a thread that's discussing something you're not interested in?

 

[Information Analyst]

It's a valid point addressed to yourself, even if not valid in general. It is you who think it's not OK to write about Scotland in the UK thread. Perhaps other people are not of that view. I will not presume to guess what the Mods think.

It seems to me that whilst the overall theme of the local elections in Scotland may well ahve been Scottish independence, for the local elections in the applicable bits of England* it was Brexit, but nobody's talking about the latter in the same way, as it's all over at the Brexit thread.

* Nothing to do with me, as we didn't have any in London.

 

[Craig B]

It seems to me that whilst the overall theme of the local elections in Scotland may well ahve been Scottish independence, for the local elections in the applicable bits of England* it was Brexit, but nobody's talking about the latter in the same way, as it's all over at the Brexit thread.

* Nothing to do with me, as we didn't have any in London.

If Brexit was an issue in the local elections then it can be discussed - in that context - here. Why not?

 

[Rolfe]

Yeah. I don't see why similarly relevant issues with the English local elections can't also be discussed here if people want to do that. Or if there's another appropriate thread people have gone to, then clearly that works too. Nothing is that prescriptive.

Mike seems to be saying that although there's no other thread of discussion on here, he doesn't like the one that is being discussed so we should stop discussing it. And yet he keeps coming back to say that, even though there's nothing here he wants to discuss and he hasn't tried to discuss an alternative angle.

In fact the local elections in Scotland have sod-all to do with independence. The Scottish government was elected on a manifesto that said there would be a second referendum if Scotland, having voted to stay in the EU, was forced to leave by a Leave majority in the UK as a whole. More recently a bill to that effect was passed in the Scottish parliament. That's where the action is and local councillors have precisely no influence on this at all.

Maybe that's why nobody is talking about the local election results in the indyref thread. Nevertheless all the spin and commentary relating to the local election results has been to do with the spurious claim by both the Tories and Labour that a vote for them was a vote to stop another referendum. They didn't lay a glove on the SNP, but have been spinning like mad trying to claim victory. It's that mad spin that's being talked about here, not independence or a referendum as such.

I see Business for Scotland has a new article up about it, majoring on the BBC's deceptive and partisan coverage.

http://www.businessforscotland.com/...orted-scottish-local-council-election-result/

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

It seems to me that whilst the overall theme of the local elections in Scotland may well ahve been Scottish independence, for the local elections in the applicable bits of England* it was Brexit, but nobody's talking about the latter in the same way, as it's all over at the Brexit thread.

* Nothing to do with me, as we didn't have any in London.

Quick fact check. There has been next to no discussion of independence in this thread. The chat was mostly about how the local election results have been spunby the media and that's very relevant. There was a brief sidetrack into the semantics of calling people nationalists but that has been well outdone by the subsequent chat on whether it's ok to talk to about Scotland in a UK local election thread.

My conclusion is that the mere mention of Scotland or Scottish issues is annoying for one particular poster and that's quite telling.

 

[Information Analyst]

If Brexit was an issue in the local elections then it can be discussed - in that context - here. Why not?

I'm not saying it can't be, just that people are choosing not to.

 

[Information Analyst]

Quick fact check. There has been next to no discussion of independence in this thread. The chat was mostly about how the local election results have been spunby the media and that's very relevant. There was a brief sidetrack into the semantics of calling people nationalists but that has been well outdone by the subsequent chat on whether it's ok to talk to about Scotland in a UK local election thread.

My conclusion is that the mere mention of Scotland or Scottish issues is annoying for one particular poster and that's quite telling.

Sorry, a lot of the second page is taken up with talk of independence, right up to Mike objecting to it on Post #66. It's not like he suddenly kicked off in response to a single mention of it.