UK General Election

[baron]

What nonsense. Politicians suggest things all the time about what governments should do. Perhaps you didn't attend carefully to my post. Corbyn has not suggested anything about SF. He doesn't need to be elected to make such suggestions if he wants to, does he?

Oh, you mean a suggestion for the Conservatives? You should post more clearly. Not that this is any less absurd, to imagine an opposition leader would suggest to a governing party that they should join up with any party, least of all one not in government.

 

[MikeG]

Not only that, but she went about it the wrong way.

If she had called the election before triggering article 50, and not been so publicly disdainful of debate she probably would have done better. But she turned people off her and appeared arrogant.

Some people here disagreed that she was arrogant and demanded I prove the arrogance in her mind, but I think it is pretty clear that a lot of people interpreted her as that.

This is an aside, and not a contradiction of, or comment on, the gist of your post.

I find the charge of arrogant to be the most pathetic and subjective of all things you can say about individuals, people, teams, and even nations. It is indefensible. "The English are arrogant" is standard fare from opponents on the sports field. Australian cricketers, who'll spit at you, swear at you all day, and tell you constantly how much they enjoyed *********** your wife, call English cricketers arrogant when they stand up to them. South African rugby supporters, used to their side bullying all opposition sides into submission, call our side arrogant for not collapsing in the face of the physical side of their game. Some Scots call the English arrogant for just drawing breath. Political opponents, who have no better argument, will describe a perfectly ordinary person as arrogant for doing a job in the a different way from the way in which they would do it themselves. It's a cheap and petty snipe, normally, from someone who hasn't got something more insightful to say.

May is universally described as shy by those who know her. If anyone were to try to attach such a label as "arrogant" to her, I'd like to see it justified. Someone choosing a course of action and trying to stick to it can be all sorts of things without being arrogant.

 

[Craig B]

Oh, you mean a suggestion for the Conservatives? You should post more clearly. Not that this is any less absurd, to imagine an opposition leader would suggest to a governing party that they should join up with any party, least of all one not in government.

What's all this about? I said, suggest a course of action. If you want to elaborate this, and then you become confused by your own complex suppositions, what is that to me?

 

[baron]

What's all this about? I said, suggest a course of action. If you want to elaborate this, and then you become confused by your own complex suppositions, what is that to me?

Why would Corbyn suggest a course of action for the Conservatives?

 

[Vixen]

Not only that, but she went about it the wrong way.

If she had called the election before triggering article 50, and not been so publicly disdainful of debate she probably would have done better. But she turned people off her and appeared arrogant.

Some people here disagreed that she was arrogant and demanded I prove the arrogance in her mind, but I think it is pretty clear that a lot of people interpreted her as that.

Especially the elderly traditional Conservative voters. They were seriously worried about the winter fuel allowances, the triple lock on pensions going and the uncapped so-called 'Dementia Tax'.

 

[Vixen]

This is an aside, and not a contradiction of, or comment on, the gist of your post.

I find the charge of arrogant to be the most pathetic and subjective of all things you can say about individuals, people, teams, and even nations. It is indefensible. "The English are arrogant" is standard fare from opponents on the sports field. Australian cricketers, who'll spit at you, swear at you all day, and tell you constantly how much they enjoyed *********** your wife, call English cricketers arrogant when they stand up to them. South African rugby supporters, used to their side bullying all opposition sides into submission, call our side arrogant for not collapsing in the face of the physical side of their game. Some Scots call the English arrogant for just drawing breath. Political opponents, who have no better argument, will describe a perfectly ordinary person as arrogant for doing a job in the a different way from the way in which they would do it themselves. It's a cheap and petty snipe, normally, from someone who hasn't got something more insightful to say.

May is universally described as shy by those who know her. If anyone were to try to attach such a label as "arrogant" to her, I'd like to see it justified. Someone choosing a course of action and trying to stick to it can be all sorts of things without being arrogant.

Having said that, the only time she seemed to smile was her evil grin whilst referring to Jeremy Corbyn, McDonnell and Diane Abbott. I don't think personal attack - no doubt as advised by Hill and Timothy (_?) - went down well with the public.

 

[angrysoba]

This is an aside, and not a contradiction of, or comment on, the gist of your post.

I find the charge of arrogant to be the most pathetic and subjective of all things you can say about individuals, people, teams, and even nations. It is indefensible. "The English are arrogant" is standard fare from opponents on the sports field. Australian cricketers, who'll spit at you, swear at you all day, and tell you constantly how much they enjoyed *********** your wife, call English cricketers arrogant when they stand up to them. South African rugby supporters, used to their side bullying all opposition sides into submission, call our side arrogant for not collapsing in the face of the physical side of their game. Some Scots call the English arrogant for just drawing breath. Political opponents, who have no better argument, will describe a perfectly ordinary person as arrogant for doing a job in the a different way from the way in which they would do it themselves. It's a cheap and petty snipe, normally, from someone who hasn't got something more insightful to say.

May is universally described as shy by those who know her. If anyone were to try to attach such a label as "arrogant" to her, I'd like to see it justified. Someone choosing a course of action and trying to stick to it can be all sorts of things without being arrogant.

Perception counts for a lot in politics. It may be fair or unfair.

 

[Vixen]

'The morning after the morning after', we need to take note of a remarkable Labour campaign which turned around a huge gulf in standing in a few weeks. At its head was Jeremy Corbyn who will be remembered as a leader who fought against great odds to produce a master plan.

It is goodbye to the Blairites/Tory-lites in the Labour Party and the likes of the GRAUNIAD who have sought to undermine Corbyn from the beginning and said he was unelectable. He is currently Labour's greatest asset and highly electable.

The gutter press who had a campaign of lies, smears and slurs have egg on their faces for all the attempts of their billionaire owners to undermine democracy.

Theresa May is now a lame duck dead in the water. She did not turn up,* thought arrogantly she was too important to mix with inferior ordinary folk. Her standing collapsed. The Tories won't trust her. She is now a liability. She may cling on to office/leadership, but her days are numbered.*

Had she not had the media and the establishment behind her, they would have been wiped out.*

The outcome is organisationally messy. It would terrify the Tories to have another election as much bigger losses would follow. They have lost the plot. May's attempt to form a government cuts a pathetic character who won't let go after her time has passed. Her credibility has plummeted in the Tory Party and country.*

Hard Brexit has gone. Poisonous politics gone. Hope has won over hate. All we have a toothless party in turmoil as it starts its own recriminations for its failing.

 

[dudalb]

Of course he's soft on extremism. In that way he's consistent, just like me, although my consistency lies in criticising all extremists, whether DUP or leftist or Islamist, whilst Corbyn's lies with making friends with them.

Your beloved Tories seem to be making pals with the obnoxious DUP.

 

[dudalb]

I just read May is being warned by other high in the Tory party that any concessions to the DUP that would endanger the Good Friday agreement is out of the question.

 

[angrysoba]

'The morning after the morning after', we need to take note of a remarkable Labour campaign which turned around a huge gulf in standing in a few weeks. At its head was Jeremy Corbyn who will be remembered as a leader who fought against great odds to produce a master plan.

It is goodbye to the Blairites/Tory-lites in the Labour Party and the likes of the GRAUNIAD who have sought to undermine Corbyn from the beginning and said he was unelectable. He is currently Labour's greatest asset and highly electable.

The gutter press who had a campaign of lies, smears and slurs have egg on their faces for all the attempts of their billionaire owners to undermine democracy.

Theresa May is now a lame duck dead in the water. She did not turn up,* thought arrogantly she was too important to mix with inferior ordinary folk. Her standing collapsed. The Tories won't trust her. She is now a liability. She may cling on to office/leadership, but her days are numbered.*

Had she not had the media and the establishment behind her, they would have been wiped out.*

The outcome is organisationally messy. It would terrify the Tories to have another election as much bigger losses would follow. They have lost the plot. May's attempt to form a government cuts a pathetic character who won't let go after her time has passed. Her credibility has plummeted in the Tory Party and country.*

Hard Brexit has gone. Poisonous politics gone. Hope has won over hate. All we have a toothless party in turmoil as it starts its own recriminations for its failing.

This is the most hyperbole-riddled post since the dawn of time.

None of the parties are particularly strong or appealing now. In a way, I do agree with some charges of arrogance on May's part despite Mike G's protestations, but I don't think it has anything to do with her refusal to mix with "inferior ordinary folk". She is not Mary Antoinette, nor is she ensconced in some ivory tower. She apparently did campaign in places where "inferior ordinary folk":

Theresa May boldly toured the Labour heartlands, "arrogantly" targeting seats the Tories had largely abandoned in recent years.

But the audacious land grab appears to have backfired, with the vast majority of those marginal seats returning even more decisive Labour victories.

The visits were branded "the kiss of death" by voters, who warned she had naively misjudged the electorate as they celebrated Labour wins.

The Prime Minister made a point of visiting seats in Wales and the North West that David Cameron had made little effort to win in 2010 and 2015.

Analysis found that around 60 per cent of her campaign visits were made to Labour constituencies such as Wrexham, Ealing, Halifax and Bridgend.

May delivered her first address of the campaign at Walmsley Parish Hall, in Bolton, after flying in by helicopter.

Sir David Crausby, who has held the Bolton North East seat for Labour since 1997, described the push for local votes as “arrogant.”

He won last night with a 3,800 majority and declared: “We will not be cowed in Bolton by plastic campaigns.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...-death-tories-lose-marginal-seats-targted-pm/

But wait! Isn't it the Labour politician guilty of arrogance in this case by believing that the seat is his by right? How dare the Torysa May come here and start talking to my "inferior ordinary folk"? How very dare she!!?

For me, the idea that all votes are up for grabs and that good faith campaigning can be done across the country, is a good thing, not bad. In fact, recent elections have become more depressing because of the micro-targeting either in marginal seats or through social media dark ads.

But I agree that she should have downplayed the perception of arrogance by appearing on the televised debates. This is expected now, and I doubt future party leaders will make the mistake of not showing up.

As for Corbyn being "highly electable", please take a few deep breaths. What made his run so astonishing was that he wasn't completely destroyed. But we would need to see if the PLP will get behind him properly next time to know whether he was electable or not. I think the PLP still see him as radioactive, but they may change their minds.

 

[Craig B]

Why would Corbyn suggest a course of action for the Conservatives?

What's all this about? I said, suggest a course of action. If you want to elaborate this, and then you become confused by your own complex suppositions, what is that to me?

To which I will add: any person is entitled to express an opinion on whether allowing the DUP, or SF (or any other organisation) to have influence over government is, or is not, a good idea in general terms.

 

[baron]

To which I will add: any person is entitled to express an opinion on whether allowing the DUP, or SF (or any other organisation) to have influence over government is, or is not, a good idea in general terms.

That's right, any person is entitled to express an opinion. Which makes it even stranger that your initial statement praised him for not doing so.

He hasn't suggested giving SF the balance of power, to his credit.​

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Perception counts for a lot in politics. It may be fair or unfair.

And some people are wilfully blind.

Edited by zooterkin: 

<SNIP>
Edited for rule 12.

 

[baron]

Your beloved Tories seem to be making pals with the obnoxious DUP.

Thanks for the newsflash, I had no idea the Conservatives were involved with the DUP, despite posting about it on this thread several times.

And by 'beloved Tories' I presume you mean that party I didn't vote for? This may come as a shock to some, but I maintain that it's possible to hold views that aren't childishly polarised. Hence I can both criticise the Conservatives for doing deals with the DUP, and criticise Corbyn for being a terrorist apologist for any number of organisations.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

This is the most hyperbole-riddled post since the dawn of time.

None of the parties are particularly strong or appealing now. In a way, I do agree with some charges of arrogance on May's part despite Mike G's protestations, but I don't think it has anything to do with her refusal to mix with "inferior ordinary folk". She is not Mary Antoinette, nor is she ensconced in some ivory tower. She apparently did campaign in places where "inferior ordinary folk":



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...-death-tories-lose-marginal-seats-targted-pm/

But wait! Isn't it the Labour politician guilty of arrogance in this case by believing that the seat is his by right? How dare the Torysa May come here and start talking to my "inferior ordinary folk"? How very dare she!!?

For me, the idea that all votes are up for grabs and that good faith campaigning can be done across the country, is a good thing, not bad. In fact, recent elections have become more depressing because of the micro-targeting either in marginal seats or through social media dark ads.

But I agree that she should have downplayed the perception of arrogance by appearing on the televised debates. This is expected now, and I doubt future party leaders will make the mistake of not showing up.

As for Corbyn being "highly electable", please take a few deep breaths. What made his run so astonishing was that he wasn't completely destroyed. But we would need to see if the PLP will get behind him properly next time to know whether he was electable or not. I think the PLP still see him as radioactive, but they may change their minds.

I heard on tv that every single marginal that TM visited she lost. She may have attempted to connect with 'ordinary folk' but she clearly didn't.

I also heard tales that a lot of these visits were nothing more than stagemanaged charades with hand picked Tory activists invited. Certainly in Scotland this seemed to be the case.

 

[Craig B]

That's right, any person is entitled to express an opinion. Which makes it even stranger that your initial statement praised him for not doing so.

He hasn't suggested giving SF the balance of power, to his credit.​

So his opinion is that SF should not be invited to participate in the governance of the UK. Mind you, that's the SF opinion too, as they boycott Westminster. Hey, that means that Corbyn agrees with terrorists! Aaargh!

 

[baron]

So his opinion is that SF should not be invited to participate in the governance of the UK. Mind you, that's the SF opinion too, as they boycott Westminster. Hey, that means that Corbyn agrees with terrorists! Aaargh!

Did Corbyn say that? Have you got a link?

 

[MikeG]

........ Hope has won over hate.....

If you missed the result of election, and simultaneously associate Corbyn with hope, then let me remind you of a couple of things. Labour lost. They were thoroughly beaten.

Secondly, generating hope by bribing people is pathetic. At least when Thatcher did it she had the good grace to bribe the electorate with their own money. Corbyn has bribed the electorate with their own children's money.

 

[Craig B]

If you missed the result of election, and simultaneously associate Corbyn with hope, then let me remind you of a couple of things. Labour lost. They were thoroughly beaten.

Secondly, generating hope by bribing people is pathetic. At least when Thatcher did it she had the good grace to bribe the electorate with their own money. Corbyn has bribed the electorate with their own children's money.

So May thouroghly won. She's not a dead woman walking after all. What did she win? A majority? A mandate? She had both when she called the election, now she doesn't. Suppose I have a hundred pounds, but I decide I need two hundred pounds. So I bet the hundred pounds at my local bookie, and come out with fifty pounds. What a victory! After all, I still have fifty pounds in my wallet.