UK General Election

MCel58 said:
If you think any treaty with Trump or the EU is going to be in the UK's favour then you are delusional either under Corbyn or May. Trump will want to sell us lots and buy very little in line with his American protectionist stance and the EU will put some freedom of movement and ECJ oversight in any resulting deal.
Click to expand...

Oh I agree the UK is screwed either way. But Corbyn will screw us over even more (see:greece)
 
NWO Sentryman said:
Oh I agree the UK is screwed either way. But Corbyn will screw us over even more (see:greece)
Click to expand...

But not because of anything by EU. Greece managed to screw themselves vey thoroughly and by themselves. (And Syriza had to abandon their idiotic plans because reality including economics was against)

As Greece, GB is very well capable of self-destruction too...
 
Last edited:
Klimax said:
But not because of anything by EU. Greece managed to screw themselves vey thoroughly and by themselves. (And Syriza had to abandon their idiotic plans because reality including economics was against)

As Greece, GB is very well capable of self-destruction too...
Click to expand...

I didn't know economic policies that have led to a depression for Greece were reality based. Unless you define reality as being "what economists who see things only through numbers on spreadsheets say it is"
 
Last edited:
NWO Sentryman said:
Oh I agree the UK is screwed either way. But Corbyn will screw us over even more (see:greece)
Click to expand...

Stammer leading the negotiations for the UK rather than Davis is actually good for the UK. Stammer is likely to put together the best cross departmental team of civil servant advisors and other experts and actually listen to them plus he understands and is able to develop detailed approaches which Davis is incapable of and these negotiations will be about pages and pages of detail. May will dither particularly if she has a small majority in the house.
 
MCel58 said:
Stammer leading the negotiations for the UK rather than Davis is actually good for the UK. Stammer is likely to put together the best cross departmental team of civil servant advisors and other experts and actually listen to them plus he understands and is able to develop detailed approaches which Davis is incapable of and these negotiations will be about pages and pages of detail. May will dither particularly if she has a small majority in the house.
Click to expand...

It doesn't matter. Syriza did that and that didn't lead to them getting a better deal, and they actively threatened to kill the euro. Macron and Merkel are setting the terms not Whitehall as starmer or Davis will soon find out.
 
Last edited:
NWO Sentryman said:
I didn't know economic policies that have led to a depression for Greece were reality based. Unless you define reality as being "what economists who see things only through numbers on spreadsheets say it is"
Click to expand...

First, Greece has decades of accounting fraud to begin with, massive debt from Olympics and insane policies (across whole civil and administrative sphere) that were nothing but disaster in waiting.
As for link, meh source and meh analysis. Americans should first fix up their own disasters that they export outside before lecturing us about them. (Among other reasons to show that they actually know what they are babbling about, before being good candidates to listen to)
 
Klimax said:
First, Greece has decades of accounting fraud to begin with, massive debt from Olympics and insane policies (across whole civil and administrative sphere) that were nothing but disaster in waiting.
As for link, meh source and meh analysis. Americans should first fix up their own disasters that they export outside before lecturing us about them. (Among other reasons to show that they actually know what they are babbling about, before being good candidates to listen to)
Click to expand...

Except Austerity. Does. Not. Work.
 
NWO Sentryman said:
Except Austerity. Does. Not. Work.
Click to expand...

Neither do splurging if you reform npthing of your internal problems. The problem is, i am not sure greece would have reformed anythibg if austerity had not been imposed. Look at the decades before the problem .... heck i am not sure the systemic problem were even solved today.

Also , pretty much you can only trust this guy at his word and that is it. There is no real evidence people were vindicative.
 
Last edited:
Aepervius said:
Neither do splurging if you reform npthing of your internal problems. The problem is, i am not sure greece would have reformed anythibg if austerity had not been imposed. Look at the decades before the problem .... heck i am not sure the systemic problem were even solved today.

Also , pretty much you can only trust this guy at his word and that is it. There is no real evidence people were vindicative.
Click to expand...

And how did gas-lighting and humiliating Tsirpas into accepting a Carthaginian bailout deal help Europe?
 
NWO Sentryman said:
And how did gas-lighting and humiliating Tsirpas into accepting a Carthaginian bailout deal help Europe?
Click to expand...

How would rewarding irresponsible policies and blackmail help Europe?

Greece needs to reform, badly and severely. Unless it reforms it has only two options, either it quits the Euro, defaults and pays it's people in Monopoly money and pretends that solved the problem, or else it's spending is financed by others in perpetuity. This is not feasible politically or economically and it is also immoral.


What choice other than prescribing a strict diet in exchange for a bailout did Europe have?

McHrozni
 
Latest polls show Tories still have a close to 10-point lead, but that's down from over 20 points a few weeks ago. If the trend holds until the election (10 more days), the two parties will be neck and neck. Voters break for Theresa May 2:1 in a lineup against Corbyn, which implies that come election day, Tories will outperform the polls.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_general_election,_2017

We'll see how accurate my prediction is next Friday :)

McHrozni
 
McHrozni said:
How would rewarding irresponsible policies and blackmail help Europe?

Greece needs to reform, badly and severely. Unless it reforms it has only two options, either it quits the Euro, defaults and pays it's people in Monopoly money and pretends that solved the problem, or else it's spending is financed by others in perpetuity. This is not feasible politically or economically and it is also immoral.


What choice other than prescribing a strict diet in exchange for a bailout did Europe have?

McHrozni
Click to expand...

And how have those reforms helped a country which saw a quarter of its economy vanish and then suffer years of stagnation? "Greece is going to turn the corner any day now..."
 
NWO Sentryman said:
And how have those reforms helped a country which saw a quarter of its economy vanish and then suffer years of stagnation?
Click to expand...

For one, they prevented an even worse turn of events where 3/4 of the economy would vanish, followed by years of political instability next to faux "growth", roughly matching the (hyper)inflation.

It's not pretty, fiscal adjustments never are, especially at this scale. The situation was hampered even further by successive criminally negligent governments that sought to promise as little as possible and then only deliver a fraction of what they promised.

It's common to blame the EU for not letting Greece default, as if EU had any power over that. Whether to default or not has always been the Greek sovereign right to decide. If anything EU has been nudging Greece to do just that, but the Greeks refused to do so every time. How do you make that the fault of the EU is beyond me.

That said, Greece might soon be eligible for an actual bailout, with debt write-off and stuff. Primary budget surplus is ahead of creditor targets, a significant green shot in the countries' fiscal health.

https://www.ft.com/content/12cea50a-19db-11e7-bcac-6d03d067f81f

McHrozni
 
Last edited:
McHrozni said:
For one, they prevented an even worse turn of events where 3/4 of the economy would vanish, followed by years of political instability next to faux "growth", roughly matching the (hyper)inflation.

It's not pretty, fiscal adjustments never are, especially at this scale. The situation was hampered even further by successive criminally negligent governments that sought to promise as little as possible and then only deliver a fraction of what they promised.

It's common to blame the EU for not letting Greece default, as if EU had any power over that. Whether to default or not has always been the Greek sovereign right to decide. If anything EU has been nudging Greece to do just that, but the Greeks refused to do so every time. How do you make that the fault of the EU is beyond me.

That said, Greece might soon be eligible for an actual bailout, with debt write-off and stuff. Primary budget surplus is ahead of creditor targets, a significant green shot in the countries' fiscal health.

https://www.ft.com/content/12cea50a-19db-11e7-bcac-6d03d067f81f

McHrozni
Click to expand...

Seeing how Germany has behaved, They'll set impossible conditions for debt relief (The Greeks will have to tax and cut to the bone to maintain that level of surplus, which actually stifles growth), and even if Macron disagrees, he'll bend the knee.

Neoliberalism has failed.

What the EU has been doing is behaving like an abusive spouse towards Greece, beating them and gaslighting them into thinking that they inflicted it on themselves. It is a textbook abusive relationship.
 
Last edited:
NWO Sentryman said:
Seeing how Germany has behaved, They'll set impossible conditions for debt relief (The Greeks will have to tax and cut to the bone to maintain that level of surplus, which actually stifles growth), and even if Macron disagrees, he'll bend the knee.

Neoliberalism has failed.
Click to expand...

No, it wasn't neoliberalism that failed Greece. It was years upon years of populist vote buying by expenditure that wasn't based in corresponding tax receipts.

Neoliberalism is just trying to fix it in a permanent way that puts a substantial share of burden upon Greeks, who repeatedly voted for those populists in the first place.

If Greeks think the alternative is any better they're free to vote for people who will do so. They should read up on Zimbabwe and Venezuela before they do though. As far as neoliberalism is evil, it is the smallest of evils out there.

I think we're drifting off topic though :o

McHrozni
 
McHrozni said:
No, it wasn't neoliberalism that failed Greece. It was years upon years of populist vote buying by expenditure that wasn't based in corresponding tax receipts.

Neoliberalism is just trying to fix it in a permanent way that puts a substantial share of burden upon Greeks, who repeatedly voted for those populists in the first place.

If Greeks think the alternative is any better they're free to vote for people who will do so. They should read up on Zimbabwe and Venezuela before they do though. As far as neoliberalism is evil, it is the smallest of evils out there.

I think we're drifting off topic though :o

McHrozni
Click to expand...

So collective punishment then? Nice.
 
NWO Sentryman said:
So collective punishment then? Nice.
Click to expand...

What punishment? Europe is doing everything it politically can to reduce the damage to Greece and Greeks. Punishment would be leaving Greece out to its' own devices. Without it, Greece would be in a far bigger mess than it currently is.

Greek voters seem to realize it and begrudgingly support staying in EU and Euro. Most probably realize that the future outside of EU and Euro is far bleaker than staying in.

McHrozni
 
McHrozni said:
What punishment? Europe is doing everything it politically can to reduce the damage to Greece and Greeks. Punishment would be leaving Greece out to its' own devices. Without it, Greece would be in a far bigger mess than it currently is.

Greek voters seem to realize it and begrudgingly support staying in EU and Euro. Most probably realize that the future outside of EU and Euro is far bleaker than staying in.

McHrozni
Click to expand...

In the same way an abused spouse is afraid of leaving their abuser due to the alternative being homelessness.

Here's the Hat Economist explaining why Austerity has failed.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom