UK General Election

[McHrozni]

So Labour is currently in the grip of "hard left" members. Corbyn says the right kinds of things that keep them happy, and they can enthuse enough of the base membership to vote him in as leader, despite his obvious inability to lead. If he was the Pied Piper of Hamlyn, the rats would leave his sinking ship rather than follow him.

Hm. This also describes the Tories rather well. British politics have broken down it seems. Well, England is supposed to have a civil war every odd century or so anyway, the 19th was an exception, the 21st could well be a return to the norm.

McHrozni

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Yet more evidence of how poor a leader Corbyn has been for the Labour Party if the objective of the party is to be the party in government as opposed to a left-wing pressure group with a handful of seats.

Wales should be fertile ground for a centre-left party which has policies which support the less well off - possibly at the expense of those, like me, who have the broadest shoulders financially speaking. Instead the Welsh seem to be intending to vote for a party whose policies will likely do the opposite, shift the burden to the less well off, continue the privatisation of the NHS, erode workers and human rights and so on.

You cannot blame the electorate, and you certainly cannot blame the Tories, Corbyn and his cronies have made the Labour Party even more unelectable, by orders of magnitude, than they were under Miliband

Of course you can blame the electorate! Ukip voting ***** switching to being Tory voting ***** are the problem and you are kidding yourself if you think it's not.

Of course Wales is a very different place now than it was a few decades ago. And the political scene is a bit of a mess in general. If we are saying disaffected labour voters have switched to ukip and now to Tory then we really are in a different planet.

Wouldn't be surprised if a decent chunk of these ukipper lot are economic migrants from over the border though. Is it about 20-25% of the population now give or take that are English migrants?

(And before anyone gets upset there's nothing at all wrong with that other than the hypocrisy of opposing immigration for others.)

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

By this sort of logic, anyone who votes Labour forgets all about the Winter of Discontent, endless strikes, secondary picketing, sympathy strikes, and Trade Union leaders trying to run the country. How about we deal with the politics of what is in front of us, rather than stuff that went on 3 or 4 decades ago.

Good idea. Can you name anything in the ukip or Tory policies that will help Wales more than the Labour ones?

Or is it just about personalities for you?

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

The polls say the opposite.

Which polls are they?

 

[The Don]

Of course you can blame the electorate! Ukip voting ***** switching to being Tory voting ***** are the problem and you are kidding yourself if you think it's not.

In Wales it seems that the issue is Labour voting ******* switching to Tory voting *******. I cannot honestly blame someone for not voting Labour with the current mess they're in and the lack of leadership shown. Bearing that in mind, does one vote Plaid (even if one is pro-union) or LibDem (with even less possibility that they will form the next government).

The failure of the Labour Party in general and Corbyn in particular has left a huge gap.

Of course Wales is a very different place now than it was a few decades ago. And the political scene is a bit of a mess in general. If we are saying disaffected labour voters have switched to ukip and now to Tory then we really are in a different planet.

In the valleys that has reportedly happened. Elsewhere in Wales the switch appears to be more direct.

Wouldn't be surprised if a decent chunk of these ukipper lot are economic migrants from over the border though. Is it about 20-25% of the population now give or take that are English migrants?

Support for UKIP is very high in the former Labour heartlands like the valleys where there are low levels of English incomers. We Anglos tend to concentrate along the Welsh Marches (staunchly Conservative) and in the big cities

(And before anyone gets upset there's nothing at all wrong with that other than the hypocrisy of opposing immigration for others.)

Well except that there is a difference between immigration from overseas and moving within one's own country (unless those same people were complaining about Welsh people moving to England).

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Well except that there is a difference between immigration from overseas and moving within one's own country (unless those same people were complaining about Welsh people moving to England).

Except there really isn't. And Wales and England aren't the same country anyway. Different thread though.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

In Wales it seems that the issue is Labour voting ******* switching to Tory voting *******. I cannot honestly blame someone for not voting Labour with the current mess they're in and the lack of leadership shown. Bearing that in mind, does one vote Plaid (even if one is pro-union) or LibDem (with even less possibility that they will form the next government).

The last sentence says a lot about why we should blame the electorate then. If you only want to vote for the winning side then you really don't deserve a vote.

 

[The Don]

The last sentence says a lot about why we should blame the electorate then. If you only want to vote for the winning side then you really don't deserve a vote.

I failed to express myself well

IMO Jeremy Corbyn and his cronies have made it impossible for many people (including me) to vote Labour in the upcoming election. That's the bit that's not the electorate's fault. The problem with the FPTP system we have is that every vote that Labour loses makes it more likely that the Conservatives will win.

The Corbynite Labour Party's unstinting support for Brexit has made sure that I cannot vote Labour even as a purely tactical anti-Conservative vote.

 

[Tolls]

Re: Wales

Well it's got to be someone's fault.

I was going to post that I've encountered Welsh who blame the English for it...then along comes Archie:

Wouldn't be surprised if a decent chunk of these ukipper lot are economic migrants from over the border though.

Just as a matter of point, I happen to know quite a number of very Welsh Tories.
And that was the 80s.

True to say they were an odd breed back then, it doesn't surprise me that in the cities on the M4 corridor they have managed to multiply, especially when presented with a Corbyn.

 

[Ambrosia]

The polls say the opposite.

I think we must be reading different polls, lets not get into indyref in this thread though.

 

[MikeG]

.......The problem with the FPTP system we have is that every vote that Labour loses makes it more likely that the Conservatives will win. ........

Is there any democratic system in which losing votes doesn't increase the chances of the other lot winning?

 

[Ambrosia]

Hm. This also describes the Tories rather well. British politics have broken down it seems.

I think May is a capable leader, not of the charismatic type for sure, but entirely capable. I'd rather she wasn't PM myself but I don't get sleepless nights over it, the way I might if Trump was running the country.

Politics here have 'broken down' only to the extent that we haven't had a credible opposition for the past 7 years, and aren't likely for one to emerge anytime soon.

Well that and the FPTP system is fundamentally flawed, I doubt that will change in my lifetime. Though I'm hopeful that we'll at least have a credible opposition in the not too distant future.

 

[The Don]

Is there any democratic system in which losing votes doesn't increase the chances of the other lot winning?

True

 

[McHrozni]

Is there any democratic system in which losing votes doesn't increase the chances of the other lot winning?

Not the other lot, but a specific other lot, Tories in this case. If UK used a system other than FPTP, such as runoff elections, Labour losing votes could actually decrease the chances for Tories winning the elections. They would win the first round easily, but faced with a LibDem one on one, with LibDems campaigning strongly for Bremain, lost Labour votes could decrease the chances for a Tory victory.

This is all hypothetical of course, but it is within the realm of reality.

McHrozni

 

[3point14]

Well that and the FPTP system is fundamentally flawed, I doubt that will change in my lifetime.

we had a vote on that but Murdoch thought it'd reduce his influence so we didn't change.

 

[McHrozni]

we had a vote on that but Murdoch thought it'd reduce his influence so we didn't change.

FPTP is a great way of keeping power if you know how to play it, which isn't exactly rocket science. The result is that a party has to obtain power and then voluntarily give up a great tool at keeping power.

This is difficult. Not impossible, but difficult.

McHrozni

 

[Information Analyst]

Who is stopping them? You?

Way to miss the point...

 

[Information Analyst]

Hilary Benn or Chuka Umuna.

Umunna has already bottled the chance of leadership once already, and never seemed to come up with a valid reason for doing so. If he tries again, how many people would support him knowing he might do the same thing again?

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

I failed to express myself well

IMO Jeremy Corbyn and his cronies have made it impossible for many people (including me) to vote Labour in the upcoming election. That's the bit that's not the electorate's fault. The problem with the FPTP system we have is that every vote that Labour loses makes it more likely that the Conservatives will win.

The Corbynite Labour Party's unstinting support for Brexit has made sure that I cannot vote Labour even as a purely tactical anti-Conservative vote.

No, this makes no more sense than the nonsense that the electorate aren't to blame for voting Trump because Hilary had flaws.

You went through the list of why people don't want to vote for Labour, Plaid and Lib Dem but conveniently didn't do the same for Tory. (In fact somehow you used this as a reason TO vote Tory)

If you really think a vote for Labour is worse than a vote for Tory then I can only despair but let's not try to hide the decision behind such nonsense. If you would prefer TM to JC in charge then go for it. But those people who make that decision are 100% to blame for their decision and its implications.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Re: Wales


I was going to post that I've encountered Welsh who blame the English for it...then along comes Archie:



Just as a matter of point, I happen to know quite a number of very Welsh Tories.
And that was the 80s.

True to say they were an odd breed back then, it doesn't surprise me that in the cities on the M4 corridor they have managed to multiply, especially when presented with a Corbyn.

Of course there have always been Welsh Tories but my point was that its not an honest comparison when people talking about how the Tories winning in Wales was unthinkable a while ago. It's a very different situation now.

It's not about 'blame' necessarily as it is about acknowledging the causes and having an honest discussion.

The idea that solid Labour voters are suddenly turning to Tory or UKIP because of Jeremy Corbyn or that they can be won back by a 'centre left' politician in a nice suit (and by centre left we of course mean centre right) is a convenient narrative but not necessarily one that makes a hell of a lot of sense.

Of course it could be that the Welsh people are really that stupid but I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt.