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UK - Election 2015

Well the conservatives regard ownership as highly superior to rented social housing so it is not incorrect nor a surprise that they would want to convert the latter to the former if they think it is viable.

If they regard ownership as so desirable, why are they not so keen to "convert" private rental properties? Obviously that's a rhetorical question. It strikes me that a truly healthy market should be a mixture of privately-owned, and public and privately rented. Any government that seeks to undermine any one of those for purely ideological reasons is is just as bad as one that would do the same to either of the others.
 
If they regard ownership as so desirable, why are they not so keen to "convert" private rental properties?......

Probably because they're already owned privately. Probably because the Conservatives support business, enterprise, and market economies.
 
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Darat
You appear to have fallen for the myth of an overcrowded UK that is almost completely built over. Even the most generous figures only give the percentage of the UK that is urbanised as being around 10% (there is a strong argument to be made that in terms of actual built on land it is as low as 2%).[/QUOTE]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/07/06/article-2011692-044E35190000044D-851_964x770.jpg

Still a green and pleasant land, but for how long?
 
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Probably because they're already owned privately. Probably because the Conservatives support business, enterprise, and market economies.
Therefore their alleged concern to turn renters into houseowners is hypocritical nonsense. They want to liquidate social rented housing.
 
Darat
You appear to have fallen for the myth of an overcrowded UK that is almost completely built over. Even the most generous figures only give the percentage of the UK that is urbanised as being around 10% (there is a strong argument to be made that in terms of actual built on land it is as low as 2%).

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/07/06/article-2011692-044E35190000044D-851_964x770.jpg

Still a green and pleasant land, but for how long?

A scene like that is about a 10 minute walk from my house come May, and I live less than 40 miles from London. If they build the 250 new properties opposite my house that scene will still be there.

If we doubled the amount of built over UK we'd only be using around 5% of all the land in the UK.
 
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You appear to have fallen for the myth of an overcrowded UK that is almost completely built over. Even the most generous figures only give the percentage of the UK that is urbanised as being around 10% (there is a strong argument to be made that in terms of actual built on land it is as low as 2%).

What do you think is an acceptable upper urban percentage for our grey and cement land?

Double what is built over now? I mean, if you are suggesting it may be so insignificant that it is no cause for concern... then how much more would you be comfortable with? Double, Quadruple, Ten times?
 
What do you think is an acceptable upper urban percentage for our grey and cement land?

Double what is built over now? I mean, if you are suggesting it may be so insignificant that it is no cause for concern... then how much more would you be comfortable with? Double, Quadruple, Ten times?

We apparently only need a few more million homes, we have around what 25 million at the moment including all ancillary urbanisations; lets be generous and say that uses 5%, so that's 5 million homes per percentage point; lets add in another 5 million homes - and all the ancillary urbanisation and we will push that 5% up to a massive 6%! That doesn't seem too much to me - is it too much for you?
 
What do you think is an acceptable upper urban percentage for our grey and cement land?

...snip..

By the way which "grey and cement land" are you talking about - I originally assumed you meant the UK but then realised you couldn't mean the UK since it is not "grey and cement land" - it's a green land with a few percentage of varied colored urbanized areas.

By the way do you know the amount of woodland in the UK is at the highest percentage since the records began in 1927? How on earth did that happen, we must have removed millions and millions of people and their homes to accommodate that increase, well unless the actual facts are that the UK is a very sparsely urbanised land.

ETA: That well know leftie, green obsessed organ of the oppressed the Daily Telegraph even carried a story a few years back about how woodland may soon reach the level we had covered by woodland at the time of the Doomsday: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ear...-to-highest-level-in-more-than-250-years.html
 
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Ah - but perception is everything, especially to the cynical.

It's not just perception it is needing it not to be true as it is often one of the "rational" reasons bigots and the like give as why we "can't take any more of them immigrants the country is full". Remove one of their reasons and will they alter their conclusions? Of course not.
 
It's not just perception it is needing it not to be true as it is often one of the "rational" reasons bigots and the like give as why we "can't take any more of them immigrants the country is full". Remove one of their reasons and will they alter their conclusions? Of course not.

Wow. "Bigots and the like"?! Report yourself to a moderator forthwith!


FWIW, Completely uncrowded, lavishly spacious areas, as shown below (will you care? - "of course not"):

Population densities (per sq. km):
England - 413
Germany – 226
France – 118
Spain – 93
USA – 33


I mean, I doubt it's even worth considering planning long term land use and environmental/economic/housing impacts until it hits at least 600 per sq km though.
 
You seemed to say the purchase discount ("dirt cheap") they would get from Cameron's bribe is more generous than the rent discount they get now. That would make it a better deal. Perhaps you want it both ways--ripping off HAs and nothing for the tenant.
That's certainly not impossible to legislate. Like you I can't see the tories, or Labour doing it. It would of course probably push up rents though.

I tend to favour land value tax, or more sensibly designed property tax, to tackle this.


I agree. The issue is getting the right - and effective - regulatory, planning and taxation environments. The housing market can and should be controlled through these means alone. Certainly not through state (or state-proxy) ownership of housing stock.

I dunno - maybe those who think that widespread state-owned housing (i.e. not just as a safety net for the truly poor, destitute, ill and needy) is a good idea also think that the state should also own (say) a large stock of motor cars to hire out. After all, lower-income people want to drive cars too. Surely this could be brilliantly addressed by the state buying millions of cars then renting them out at favourable rates to people? And best of all, they could deny those people the chance to buy the cars they were driving. I'm sure that would work out really well and be super-efficient into the bargain :D
 
Wow. "Bigots and the like"?! Report yourself to a moderator forthwith!


FWIW, Completely uncrowded, lavishly spacious areas, as shown below (will you care? - "of course not"):

Population densities (per sq. km):
England - 413
Germany – 226
France – 118
Spain – 93
USA – 33


I mean, I doubt it's even worth considering planning long term land use and environmental/economic/housing impacts until it hits at least 600 per sq km though.


But these overall population density numbers are essentially meaningless in the context of an informed debate about housing density and planning needs etc. The facts are that the other European countries listed have far larger swathes of extremely low pop density land (either rural/agricultural or uninhabitable (mountains, forests, etc). Nobody wants to build houses there to any significant degree, so they're essentially irrelevant to the debate.

Instead, we need to look at land availability (and the different classes of land availability - green, brown, industrial, etc) in the areas where there actually is significant demand for new/replacement housing. In the UK, this consists roughly (in descending importance) of a) the area 50km around London, b) Greater Manchester, c) Birmingham, d) Leeds/Bradford, e) Sheffield, f) the Glasgow-Edinburgh corridor, and g) the other areas surrounding cities and larger towns.

When one compares the situation in the UK with that in those other countries, the UK is still at a disadvantage, since its major urban/suburban zones (especially the 50km around London) are denser and more built-out than in many other countries. Nonetheless, there's plenty of available land to meet the needs. What's needed is a proper, joined-up planning strategy, which in turn is driven by a proper, joined-up masterplan of housing (and other construction) needs over the next 30-50 years. It can be done. But it requires political vision, political will and cross-party communication/consensus. Those, I suspect, are the real barriers to be overcome.
 
Wow. "Bigots and the like"?! Report yourself to a moderator forthwith!


FWIW, Completely uncrowded, lavishly spacious areas, as shown below (will you care? - "of course not"):

Population densities (per sq. km):
England - 413
Germany – 226
France – 118
Spain – 93
USA – 33


I mean, I doubt it's even worth considering planning long term land use and environmental/economic/housing impacts until it hits at least 600 per sq km though.

You forgot to mention that:

-England is the most densely populated country in Europe

-South East England is already the most densely populated part of Britain (450+ per sq km)


-amongst many problems of increasing the population by the size of Coventry every single year, the SE of England, where the population pressures are greatest, is also the driest part of the country, with many areas having less rainfall than Jerusalem. Some rivers are so heavily abstracted that they dry up in summer.

-we don't have great swathes of spare land. It is almost all farmed, and the little bit that isn't is wilderness such as woodlands, wetlands or downlands. That this isn't of value to the build-over-everything brigade doesn't mean it isn't of great value to those who work the land or to the wildlife that lives there, or to those who use it for recreation.

-it isn't just the houses. It is the traffic, the new roads, the streetlights, the new shopping centres, hospitals, industrial estates, noise, crime and destruction of historic landscapes and villages, all associated with the new housing.
 
But these overall population density numbers are essentially meaningless in the context of an informed debate about housing density and planning needs etc. The facts are that the other European countries listed have far larger swathes of extremely low pop density land (either rural/agricultural or uninhabitable (mountains, forests, etc). Nobody wants to build houses there to any significant degree, so they're essentially irrelevant to the debate.

Instead, we need to look at land availability (and the different classes of land availability - green, brown, industrial, etc) in the areas where there actually is significant demand for new/replacement housing. In the UK, this consists roughly (in descending importance) of a) the area 50km around London, b) Greater Manchester, c) Birmingham, d) Leeds/Bradford, e) Sheffield, f) the Glasgow-Edinburgh corridor, and g) the other areas surrounding cities and larger towns.

When one compares the situation in the UK with that in those other countries, the UK is still at a disadvantage, since its major urban/suburban zones (especially the 50km around London) are denser and more built-out than in many other countries. Nonetheless, there's plenty of available land to meet the needs. What's needed is a proper, joined-up planning strategy, which in turn is driven by a proper, joined-up masterplan of housing (and other construction) needs over the next 30-50 years. It can be done. But it requires political vision, political will and cross-party communication/consensus. Those, I suspect, are the real barriers to be overcome.

That's a good answer! A thorough plan of where and how many houses would be developed (going by demand; millions, all in london) would potentially take a lot of pressure out of the debate.
 
.....Instead, we need to look at land availability (and the different classes of land availability - green, brown, industrial, etc) in the areas where there actually is significant demand for new/replacement housing. In the UK, this consists roughly (in descending importance) of a) the area 50km around London, b) Greater Manchester, c) Birmingham, d) Leeds/Bradford, e) Sheffield, f) the Glasgow-Edinburgh corridor, and g) the other areas surrounding cities and larger towns.......

If only that were the whole story. Regional market towns are the places under the greatest proportional pressure.
 
That's a good answer! A thorough plan of where and how many houses would be developed (going by demand; millions, all in london) would potentially take a lot of pressure out of the debate.

Or, realise that we can't meet a perpetually increasing demand, and do something about restricting that demand.
 
You forgot to mention that:

-England is the most densely populated country in Europe

-South East England is already the most densely populated part of Britain (450+ per sq km)


-amongst many problems of increasing the population by the size of Coventry every single year, the SE of England, where the population pressures are greatest, is also the driest part of the country, with many areas having less rainfall than Jerusalem. Some rivers are so heavily abstracted that they dry up in summer.

-we don't have great swathes of spare land. It is almost all farmed, and the little bit that isn't is wilderness such as woodlands, wetlands or downlands. That this isn't of value to the build-over-everything brigade doesn't mean it isn't of great value to those who work the land or to the wildlife that lives there, or to those who use it for recreation.

-it isn't just the houses. It is the traffic, the new roads, the streetlights, the new shopping centres, hospitals, industrial estates, noise, crime and destruction of historic landscapes and villages, all associated with the new housing.

Now now mike, only bigots and the like post these kind of concerns.

"Destruction of historic landscapes " - dogwhistle stuff if ever I heard it.
 
Or, realise that we can't meet a perpetually increasing demand, and do something about restricting that demand.

If a detailed plan was made, showing amounts and locations, then we'd be able to judge if the construction was acceptable.
 

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