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Cont: UFOs: The Research, the Evidence

Yeah, I'm not sure what is going on here, Explorer. Your first post on the thread may have been a little ambiguous but you've made your position clear since, yet a couple of posters still seem to be treating you as if you're another gullible believer. Maybe it's just because Scorpion seems to have run away, and they still have a bit more disdain to get out of their system. ;)
 
Yeah, I'm not sure what is going on here, Explorer. Your first post on the thread may have been a little ambiguous but you've made your position clear since, yet a couple of posters still seem to be treating you as if you're another gullible believer. Maybe it's just because Scorpion seems to have run away, and they still have a bit more disdain to get out of their system. ;)
Thanks Pixel, that is appreciated. I apologise if I was initially ambiguous, as I try hard not to be, but I suppose my sense of ambiguity is not always the same as everyone else's, especially on a sceptic site and forum.
 
I have to admit I too am puzzled at the amount of disagreement I'm seeing from people who seem like they should substantially agree. I've written a dozen posts in my head over the past few days trying to thread some sort of needle, but I think what's going on is just what understandably happens when a bad argument is wrong for several reasons. In law, you rebut them all in the alternative because you don't know which one the judge will like and pick. But in other contexts you might pick the error you think is the most egregious or which lends itself best to the rebuttal you're most comfortable writing.

The "trained observer" argument we get from UFO claimants is wrong for several reasons. I don't think it matters a lot which one you choose to attack. But there might be a rhetorical wrinkle if you have to assume something true in the rebuttal for the sake of argument that should rightly be challenged. And speaking as someone who habitually writes walls of text in the interest of being thorough, I can understand how someone's purposefully structured argument might miss the mark upon casual reading.

Clearly there's coded language and nuance in the "trained observer" argument that bears examination no matter which rebuttal path you take. I'm tempted to write a wall of text to share my thoughts on that, but I'm not sure it would be helpful. It would seem like both dead horses have been thoroughly beaten and I'm not sure beating one over the other would endear me to the thread.
 
Alien spacecraft is just about the least interesting explanation for any observed aerial phenomenon. Maybe second to "people saw what they saw because God willed them to see it."

"Let's assume it's an alien spacecraft. What does that tell us about it? That it's a craft. Made by aliens. From space. What's it made of? Can't tell, and no way to find out. What's it for? Can't tell, and no way to find out. Will there be more of them? Can't tell, and no way to find out. How does it work? Can't tell, and no way to find out. Why does it behave as it does? Can't tell, and no way to find out. Is it dangerous? Can't tell, and no way to find out.Is it beneficial? Can't tell, and no way to find out. What should we do about them? Can't tell, and no way to find out. Where are the aliens from? Can't tell, and no way to find out. What are they like? Can't tell, and no way to find out. But let's keep talking about them for decade after decade because it makes unidentified phenomena so interesting!"
 
Alien spacecraft is just about the least interesting explanation for any observed aerial phenomenon. Maybe second to "people saw what they saw because God willed them to see it."

"Let's assume it's an alien spacecraft. What does that tell us about it? That it's a craft. Made by aliens. From space. What's it made of? Can't tell, and no way to find out. What's it for? Can't tell, and no way to find out. Will there be more of them? Can't tell, and no way to find out. How does it work? Can't tell, and no way to find out. Why does it behave as it does? Can't tell, and no way to find out. Is it dangerous? Can't tell, and no way to find out.Is it beneficial? Can't tell, and no way to find out. What should we do about them? Can't tell, and no way to find out. Where are the aliens from? Can't tell, and no way to find out. What are they like? Can't tell, and no way to find out. But let's keep talking about them for decade after decade because it makes unidentified phenomena so interesting!"

Surely, however, the proof of the existence of an alien spacecraft would answer the question, "Are we alone?" And that would be a very interesting answer. :w2:
 
Surely, however, the proof of the existence of an alien spacecraft would answer the question, "Are we alone?" And that would be a very interesting answer. :w2:
It would, but can't tell, and no way to find out, is the answer that GiT would suggest.

A positive answer however would be the most profound announcement in modern history, and ancient for that matter, but it still doesn't answer the question as to whether or not aliens have the ability to travel astronomical distances. We also can't tell their logic, or assume it is the same as our own. We send out unmanned probes within our solar system and now beyond with Voyager, but would they do the same initially at least, the answer is the same, we can't tell and no way to find out.
 
I think it was Arthur C Clarke who pointed out that the implications of a definitive answer to the question "Are we alone?" would be staggering, regardless of whether that answer was "yes" or "no".

ETA: found the actual quote.

 
Option #1. Aliens out there somewhere? Cool. Thought so.

Option #2. We're the only ones around? We're the best the universe can do? This is it? Oh god oh jesus oh sacred heart, the shame! The chagrin! The feeling of doofushood!

Worst of all, the letdown.
 
I got into aerospace for two reasons. First, survival of the human species from natural consequences depends on us living on more than one planet in order to avoid planetary extinction events. Second, the math convinces me that there is life on other planets, and finding it would be a transformative event in human history. I'm not realistically thinking that either of those will be resolved in my lifetime. I'm just content to have contributed.
 
Returning to the "trained observer" question, I want to see if I can decode some of that without it turning into an unreadable screed.

The rhetoric, "Joe saw something he couldn't identify, and Joe is a trained observer," is obviously meant to combat the notion that ordinary people aren't expected to be able to identify or explain everything they see. That to me is a question of skill. The sidecar rhetoric, "Joe saw something he couldn't explain, and Joe is trustworthy because he holds a prominent position," is obviously meant to combat the notion that some UFO claims are patently dishonest (e.g., Billy Meier). That to me is a question of honestly. Both arguments are flawed for a number of different reasons.

When we say, "There's no such thing as a 'trained observer,'" we've either said too much or not enough. What we really mean is, "The 'trained observer' prototype you've conjured up does not actually exist." It doesn't exist for a number of reasons that have been touched upon with probably more friendly fire than is deserved.

The rebuttal is complicated by the fact that trained observation does exist, albeit with rules. A doctor is trained to recognize the signs of a heart attack, a conclusion that might escape a lay person. An auto mechanic is trained to make observations leading to a conclusion of a blown head gasket, again something that a lay person might not understand. Pilots are encouraged to identify other airplanes in the sky, and I received a bit of training in that when I was studying to be a pilot. The two factors we identified in all those cases is that reliable observations are nominal, and that they are limited to affirmative, known phenomena.

By "nominal" I mean that a pilot might be taught to differentiate a Boeing 777 from an Airbus A321 under ordinary, expected circumstances. And with practice, he might become adept at it. A police officer might be taught to recognize the canonical symptoms of cannabis intoxication, which would apply only under canonical conditions. When conditions change, that person's ability to draw reliable conclusions about ordinary, trained-on phenomena is provably compromised. The UFO rhetoric relies on the presumption that someone trained to observe certain known things will always be able to identify those certain known things in all circumstances, and that if such an identification fails then the actual nature of the phenomenon must be extraordinary in some respect that the world is bound to acknowledge.

By limitation to "affirmative known phenomena," I mean that there is no such thing as a general trained observer. A police officer taught to inspect suspects for signs of intoxication does not automatically also acquire the skill to identify satanic cult behavior. (Yes, that was once unironically claimed by law enforcement.) A pilot taught to recognize types of aircraft he might encounter while flying does not automatically acquire the skill to infer the properties of objects he does not recognize in the sky. The data do not show that people trained to observe one thing automatically become better at observing things they haven't been trained to observe. The UFO rhetoric relies on presumptions to the contrary and that certain people are better than others at observing everything by virtue of training.

Specifically, interpretations of observations that give rise to beliefs about size, distance, and velocity of observed phenomena are necessarily connected to knowing what the object is. Beyond a certain distance—and especially in the sky—estimates of size and distance are overwhelmingly informed by knowledge of the object's identity. When the identity is uncertain, assumption steps in (and is almost always wrong). There is no way to train that away—it is basic human nature. The UFO rhetoric relies on the presumption that all such estimates should be taken at face value because a "trained observer" is presumed not to be susceptible to such optical shortcomings; facially improbable claims should be resolved in favor of taking the witness at his word.

It's incidentally amusing to see how quickly the claims of a privileged observer class are discarded. On the authority of his authors, Scorpion assures us that, yes, there exists a class of people who can observe things more reliably than others. Scorpion simultaneously admits that he is not a member of this class, yet he should be considered just as adept as those who are. Everyone thinks he's immune to ordinary human limitations when his own claims are questioned.

Here's probably the best place to bring up the fact that no one can be trained to recognize alien spacecraft because we have no specimens to train on. The ability to falsify certain possibilities is essential to being able to reliably identify anything. That indicates that the ability to falsify the alien-spaceship explanation is essential. In my view, this really just comes down to pointing out that the UFO claims are an argument from silence. The set of unexplained sightings would hypothetically include sightings of ordinary objects under circumstances that preclude identification and sightings of alien spacecraft that we have no prior experience with. Since there is no evidentiary method for differentiating these, the problem is effectively intractable.

Turning to the question of reliability, the UFO rhetoric wants to paint the picture in stark colors. If someone is presumed by virtue of his role in society or his general demeanor to be trustworthy, then that person is somehow presumed to be immune from ordinary biases and ordinary error. When we raise the question that someone might be mistaken or fooled by circumstances in a very ordinary way, the response is too often the ad hominem claim that we're uncharitably questioning a person's motives. The UFO rhetoric wants us to consider the objective observation and the subjective interpretation as an indivisible parcel. But we can accept that a person legitimately saw something that's extraordinary on its face without necessarily buying into the associated speculation and interpretation of what it might have been.

But then we have to question the major premise of the argument as well, which is that certain classes of people as defined by their occupations or roles are generally more trustworthy than others. In the Greer-Leslie taxonomy, this often includes politician and police officers—people not generally regarded for their honesty (at least in the United States). The Greer-Leslie taxonomy also historically included people who belong or claimed to belong to those virtuous groups, but who then behaved in a way best explained by a desire for notoriety. The exceptions prove the rule, and we place less faith in such categorical premises.

And even when you come down to people like fighter pilots and other military officers, a certain amount of excitement and embellishment is expected from them too. As investigators, we need to pierce that veneer. But embellishment is endemic to human nature. We can allow a fighter pilot some bravado and storytelling leeway without characterizing him as a scoundrel.

But as we see in the David Grusch case, the insidious effect of the "virtuous and trained observer" claim is to shift the discussion away from whether there's any evidence for the proffered hypothesis to squishier arguments such as who has skill and who is trustworthy. Grusch has no evidence, and I think he knows it. But he and the authors who rely on him want to distract from that by saying what a good, reliable guy Grusch is. The "trained observer" myth is along those same lines. It's ad hominem advocacy stepping in for a lack of testable evidence. When we try to bring the question back to one of testable evidence, the rebuttal is predictably ad hominem—we're rejecting the claims of obviously skilled and obviously trustworthy people, and shame on us for doing so.
 
I think the point has been made earlier in this thread but the only "trained observer" who counts is one trained in identifying alien spacecraft. We don't have any one because we have no experienced individual to train him/her. The observers we do have struggle along as best we can.
 
I think the point has been made earlier in this thread but the only "trained observer" who counts is one trained in identifying alien spacecraft. We don't have any one because we have no experienced individual to train him/her. The observers we do have struggle along as best we can.
That makes more sense. The way Explorer phrased it hit my brain as a "it's unfair to ask UFOlogists to be trained for something we insist never happens." So that's what I was responding to.

Also, I question the premise. IF - I say, IF - you could train someone to recognize mundane objects in all conditions, then they would be trained to recognize (though perhaps not identify) extraterrestrial objects by simple process of elimination.

"I've been trained to recognize helicopter behavior in all conditions, so I can draw on my expertise to say that must be something other than a helicopter."

And yes, I fully understand that my "IF" is colossal in scope, and that such training is not really possible. I reach the same conclusion, but from a different starting point.
 
A positive answer however would be the most profound announcement in modern history, and ancient for that matter...
Yes, which then forces the question of UFO believers - why isn't it all over the news? Surely an announcement that profound would be broadcast globally?

This forces them to postulate a grand conspiracy to keep the Truth from the sheeple. Just like all the other grand conspiracies.
 
Also, I question the premise. IF - I say, IF - you could train someone to recognize mundane objects in all conditions, then they would be trained to recognize (though perhaps not identify) extraterrestrial objects by simple process of elimination.
As you happily concede, that IF is doing a lot of heavy lifting. From a certain theoretical perspective, it would never be able to lift a sufficient burden of proof. An open-ended question can't establish some desired default by failing to falsify any number of definite alternatives, no matter what Conan Doyle thinks. You need a provably finite hypothesis set in order to conclude a thing by eliminating the other possibilities.

Even if you were to achieve the impossible and train someone to recognize all known mundane terrestrial objects in all conditions, the result of a thorough process of elimination for some sighting would still be a hypothesis set containing both "alien spaceship" and "unknown mundane object," with no way to distinguish further. I added "known" and "unknown" to your formula, and you might rightly say those are doing a lot of heavily lifting in my answer. I just don't think the nature of the world and knowledge of it permit ever holding any meaningful conclusion strictly by default, by elimination.
 
I got into aerospace for two reasons. First, survival of the human species from natural consequences depends on us living on more than one planet in order to avoid planetary extinction events. Second, the math convinces me that there is life on other planets, and finding it would be a transformative event in human history. I'm not realistically thinking that either of those will be resolved in my lifetime. I'm just content to have contributed.
My study of the occult tells me we incarnate on many different planets in the course of our spiritual evolution. The occult teaches there are very many inhabited planets and most of them are inhabited by humans. That is the standard model of two arms two legs two eyes and walking upright.
Of course you do not believe this but if you think about it then it makes sense, as we on this planet may be destroyed at any time. If we only existed on this planet the destruction of it would halt our evolution. If there are many other planets at different stages of spiritual evolution then we just incarnate on another world. We incarnate until reaching enlightenment, or a state of grace, after which we go on evolving as immortal beings in higher realms.
If this is the case them we are the aliens, We have incarnated on other worlds and will again. and the universe is filled with one great family of souls, and all we have to do to go to other worlds is to die.
 
Nature doesn't care if we go extinct any more than it cared when diplodocus or the dodo went extinct.

Are there also other planets full of triceratops etc etc?

You're right to note that your belief won't be shared by anyone else here. The likelihood of life on other planets I have no problem with. Intelligent life in some places doesn't seem too fantastical. But parallel evolution which happens to produce a constant supply of human-like vessels, bred by some guiding hand and scattered through the universe, to produce a resilient supply for souls to be decanted into, is several orders of fairytale too daft for me.
 
My study of the occult tells me we incarnate on many different planets
My study of crackpots who don't have a shred of evidence to support their wild fantasies tells me that's nonsense.

Of course you do not believe this but if you think about it then it makes sense
I've thought about it. It makes no sense whatsoever.
 
That makes more sense. The way Explorer phrased it hit my brain as a "it's unfair to ask UFOlogists to be trained for something we insist never happens." So that's what I was responding to.
Again I have to say that I never said those words and so you are mis-quoting what I said. The point I was making was addressed to all and everyone, not just claimants, and certainly it is NOT unfair. I repeat, nobody can be trained observers to recognise alien craft, when we we don't know what they are and without definitive references for comparison . The best we can do is to say that UFOs cannot be identified by definition, and leave it there.
 
Again I have to say that I never said those words and so you are mis-quoting what I said. The point I was making was addressed to all and everyone, not just claimants, and certainly it is NOT unfair. I repeat, nobody can be trained observers to recognise alien craft, when we we don't know what they are and without definitive references for comparison . The best we can do is to say that UFOs cannot be identified by definition, and leave it there.
I'm not misquoting you. I'm paraphrasing what you said, to make it more clear how I interpreted it. The misinterpretation was mine, and informed my response.
 

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