Two unarmed policewomen shot dead in the UK

[Agatha]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-19635239

A wanted criminal made a non-emergency call to the police, reporting a burglary (which had not occurred). Two police officers were sent to the address, as is routine, and when they got there they were shot in a hail of bullets (some witnesses report hearing as many as 13 shots) and a grenade was thrown at them. One officer died at the scene, the other later in hospital. Both were unarmed, as almost all police officers here are. The suspect later walked into a police station and handed himself in; he's now being questioned about these murders and two others.

The suspect, Dale Cregan, lured the officers into a trap and then murdered them in cold blood. He had no idea who would be sent to investigate the fake burglary - women or men, young or old, married or single, with children or without. And curiously, although he's been the subject of a manhunt for some months, he then gave himself up to police voluntarily.

I don't think personally that this will lead to many calls to arm the police.

This brings to nine the number of women police officers killed in the line of duty in the UK.

PC Fiona Bone (32, and about to get married) and PC Nicola Hughes (23).

 

[kerikiwi]

This brings to nine the number of women police officers killed in the line of duty in the UK.

How about the men?

 

[zooterkin]

A tragic story with some baffling elements.

I don't think personally that this will lead to many calls to arm the police.

I wouldn't be to sure about that. Certainly some are calling for it.

But serving officers of all ranks last night insisted arming all officers was not the answer and knee jerk reactions should be avoided.
Film director Michael Winner, founder of the Police Memorial Trust, led calls for a change in arming police.
He said: “I cannot understand it when in all other countries police are armed to fight what is clearly a different situation today. It is ridiculous.”
Toy Rayner, the former chairman of Essex Police Federation, said: “How many have to die before arming is considered?”
The call was echoed by the family of Pc Rathband, who hanged himself earlier this year.
His twin brother Darren, formerly of Staffordshire Police and now serving in South Australia, said: “It beggars belief. How many officers need to die before the powers realise that it is the 21st century and you cannot fight crime with an outdated piece of plastic and a bit of spray.”
Pc Rathband’s son. Ash, added: “It's time for police to be armed in my opinion.”
However, a survey by the Police Federation in 2006 showed officers were overwhelmingly against such a move.

 

[One Skunk Todd]

Would the officers being armed have made a difference in this situation?

 

[WildCat]

That would never have happened in the USA.



The murderer would have gotten bored and left after waiting 6 hours for the police to show up.

 

[Rolfe]

Would the officers being armed have made a difference in this situation?

That's the point, and I don't see at the moment that it would. The girls were lured straight into an ambush, quite unsuspecting, and wouldn't have had a chance to draw guns if they'd had them as far as I can see.

If the police themselves really felt they needed guns and it would significantly improve their safety, I think we'd have to give them to them, but I don't think that's the case. Policemen themselves seem to be more of the view that it would simply escalate the stakes in the arms race.

Rolfe.

 

[Rolfe]

This blue-pencilled bastard was already wanted for multiple murders. They were going to get him, sooner or later. It looks as if he decided he would murder a couple of random cops for good measure before he was caught, as it wasn't going to make any appreciable difference to the sentence he would get by then anyway.

If anything, it's a pro death penalty argument.

Rolfe.

 

[WildCat]

That's the point, and I don't see at the moment that it would. The girls were lured straight into an ambush, quite unsuspecting, and wouldn't have had a chance to draw guns if they'd had them as far as I can see.

It really depends on their training and vigilance. And most likley one would have had time to react while the other was getting shot.

 

[kerikiwi]

If anything, it's a pro death penalty argument.

Not really. If he had already committed several murders, and the death penalty was coming up, all the more reason to carry on killing.

 

[kerikiwi]

It really depends on their training and vigilance. And most likley one would have had time to react while the other was getting shot.

Faster than a speeding bullet, eh?

 

[LTC8K6]

A grenade? Jeez. Who would be prepared for that? I don't think we throw grenades in the states yet.

But the world has clearly changed. Perhaps senior officers should carry in the UK? I don't know if officers are paired up over there like that, a senior with a junior. They often are in the states.

Unless you anticipated an ambush, I don't see this as turning out well for whatever officers are lured in.

 

[Rolfe]

It really depends on their training and vigilance. And most likley one would have had time to react while the other was getting shot.

In hindsight, training and vigilance might have mitigated the severity of the situation as it was. However, the police attend to routine reports of burglary every day. If you approach every one of these as if it's potentially a murderous ambush then of course it's less likely someone will get the drop on you. But that has never been a necessary strategy up till now.

Rolfe.

 

[WildCat]

Faster than a speeding bullet, eh?

No, faster than the perp can kill one cop and draw a bead on the other.

He fired what, 13 times IIRC? That tells me he missed a few times, maybe because he had to chase down the second cop who could only try to make herself a difficult target at that point.

 

[LTC8K6]

This blue-pencilled bastard was already wanted for multiple murders. They were going to get him, sooner or later. It looks as if he decided he would murder a couple of random cops for good measure before he was caught, as it wasn't going to make any appreciable difference to the sentence he would get by then anyway.

If anything, it's a pro death penalty argument.

Rolfe.

Sadly, that is all too often the situation here. Officers (and civilians) get shot by people who should still be in jail for other crimes, or should already be in jail.

 

[666]

Here's some background to the situation.

 

[Agatha]

How about the men?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_police_officers_killed_in_the_line_of_duty

I have not counted them, but it looks to be over 200, and it's been updated to include today's murders.

I don't think them being armed would have made a difference; Cregan (allegedly) gunned them down as soon as they got out of the patrol car, which was found with its engine still running.

I think that unless and until the police themselves express a wish to be armed as routine, the pontificating of people like Michael Winner should be ignored.

 

[Rolfe]

Not really. If he had already committed several murders, and the death penalty was coming up, all the more reason to carry on killing.

It depends. One of the calls has been to reintroduce the death penalty specifically for the murder of a police officer. I can easily envisage a legislative structure where life in prison might have been the probable outcome of the earlier crimes, but where the deliberate motiveless murder of a couple of absolutely random people just for the lulz might then lead to the death penalty.

Don't get me wrong, I'm adamantly opposed to the death penalty and this doesn't change my mind in the slightest, but I point out the argument. It's a better argument than the one for arming the police on the basis of this incident.

A grenade, followed by a hail of 13 bullets? I mean, what good would a couple of holstered guns have been against that?

Rolfe.

 

[ponderingturtle]

It really depends on their training and vigilance. And most likley one would have had time to react while the other was getting shot.

Or not in a great many situations. Given a good ambush they had no reason to suspect I don't see much they could do.

 

[LTC8K6]

The thing is, the caller is pretty sure the responding officers are unarmed.

 

[Rolfe]

No, faster than the perp can kill one cop and draw a bead on the other.

He fired what, 13 times IIRC? That tells me he missed a few times, maybe because he had to chase down the second cop who could only try to make herself a difficult target at that point.

The cops themselves put seven bullets into Jean Charles de Menezes' head when he was standing restrained with one officer's arms pinning his arms to his sides. You think that tells you they missed a few times, and were chasing the unarmed electrician down, who could only try to make himself a difficult target at that point?

This bastard set off a grenade. The 13 shots are far more likely to be an "I'll mak siccar" move, than to indicate that one of the girls was still ambulatory.

Rolfe.