Two unarmed policewomen shot dead in the UK

[WildCat]

Do officers wear body armor in the UK? It's quite common here. Our guys might even have survived the grenade shrapnel, if it was a real grenade.

The same guy was caught oin video in a previous grenade attack (posted above) and it's definitely a real grenade, not a flashbang. You can see the ball bearings/shrapnel hit the brick fence.

 

[Rolfe]

The grenade came last according to a witness, didn't it? They were either dead or dying at that point.

He couldn't shoot them both at the same time, surely one would have had a chance to react while the other was getting shot. A holstered gun can be drawn quicker than you think. Maybe it would have made a difference, maybe not. I don't see the logic in not giving them a chance.

The younger girl made it to hospital alive.

Hard cases make bad law, as they say. Do we want to make the routine response to every call made by someone carrying a gun? Do we want to change the public's relationship with and perception of the police in this way?

This debate will run and run. If the police themselves start demanding it, we'll have to give it serious consideration, but at the moment it seems to be a bit of a knee-jerk response to this incident. I believe Cregan would have set this ambush at whatever level he needed to do to make sure he'd be able to overcome whatever the routine response was.

As I said, the Bird affair was actually quite a strong argument for arming the police, but it was decided that in fact one incident of that nature wasn't a strong enough argument.

Rolfe.

 

[Rolfe]

Do officers wear body armor in the UK? It's quite common here. Our guys might even have survived the grenade shrapnel, if it was a real grenade.

They wear stab vests. Some cops believe even that much puts a distance between themselves and the public that they'd rather not have.

Rolfe.

 

[LTC8K6]

They wear stab vests. Some cops believe even that much puts a distance between themselves and the public that they'd rather not have.

Rolfe.

You get the same escalation here. The murderers know the police wear body armor, so they shoot for the head, or they shoot under the body armor, in the armpit area, etc. They know how to kill a person wearing the armor.

 

[LTC8K6]

The same guy was caught oin video in a previous grenade attack (posted above) and it's definitely a real grenade, not a flashbang. You can see the ball bearings/shrapnel hit the brick fence.

Where is he getting real grenades?

 

[Bob001]

.....My bet would be that the 13 shots indicates the officers were able to react and make difficult targets.....

This is really important. It sounds like the shooter opened up from a distance, rather than waiting until the officers were close. If they had been armed they might have been able to take cover and return fire. Of course, if the shooter had known that he could be shot dead on the spot, he might not have attacked the police in the first place.

 

[Alt+F4]

That would never have happened in the USA.

Well in New York City the police would have already shot everyone involved (10 police shootings this summer, one fatality, none were criminals).

 

[Agatha]

Do officers wear body armor in the UK? It's quite common here. Our guys might even have survived the grenade shrapnel, if it was a real grenade.

Do UK police officers wear bullet resistant vests as a matter of routine?

Yes, stab vests.

There's every reason to think it was a 'real' grenade, as Cregan (allegedly) had already committed one murder using such a thing.

I'm just saying that in the states, there is no way officers are going into that house on anything but high alert.

Why would they have done so here (leaving aside the fact that the two officers here never got to the house, the car's engine was still running)? As far as they knew, this was a routine call to the aftermath of a burglary where the householder was there (so the burglar was long gone).

Their expectations would be to have a cup of tea with the householder and advise them about security, check to see if there was likely to be any forensic evidence (and arrange for scenes of crime officers to attend if there was), take a report of what had been stolen and a witness statement from the householder, and put them in touch with Victim Support if they were distressed by the burglary.

If there had been a suggestion of a suspect being on the premises, they would have approached the job differently, but that is not what the call was about.

 

[Bob001]

.... Do we want to make the routine response to every call made by someone carrying a gun? .....

Every police officer in the U.S. carries a gun, often two. It doesn't seem to interfere with his/her ability to direct traffic, write parking tickets, console lost children etc. But if a thug opens up with gun, the officer is equipped to do more than shout, "Pardon me, that's not cricket!"

 

[fuelair]

Would the officers being armed have made a difference in this situation?

Maybe. It is never certain. The only thing that is always certain is that they would have had a better chance to live had they been armed. That is the only thing that is always certain.

 

[fuelair]

That would never have happened in the USA.



The murderer would have gotten bored and left after waiting 6 hours for the police to show up.

Unfortunately, no smiley is needed for this. It is part of why I prefer the ability to handle the problem on my own if necessary.

 

[fuelair]

This blue-pencilled bastard was already wanted for multiple murders. They were going to get him, sooner or later. It looks as if he decided he would murder a couple of random cops for good measure before he was caught, as it wasn't going to make any appreciable difference to the sentence he would get by then anyway.

If anything, it's a pro death penalty argument.

Rolfe.

With a lot of pre-death entertainment - purely for educational reasons.

 

[fuelair]

It really depends on their training and vigilance. And most likley one would have had time to react while the other was getting shot.

Yes - and, if both were drawn prior to entry...........

 

[Bob001]

Just a question here: In the UK, if an unarmed officer gets into trouble, how long does it take to get armed officers to the scene? Two minutes? An hour? Are armed officers on patrol and ready to respond, or does a special team need to be called up, like our SWAT teams? Also, theoretically firearms are mostly banned from civilians in the UK; how hard is it for criminals to actually get guns?

 

[fuelair]

Yes - and, if both were drawn prior to entry...........

and, if they automatically popped in a flash-bang before entry...........

 

[Irony]

Every police officer in the U.S. carries a gun, often two. It doesn't seem to interfere with his/her ability to direct traffic, write parking tickets, console lost children etc. But if a thug opens up with gun, the officer is equipped to do more than shout, "Pardon me, that's not cricket!"

And occasionally open fire on people for the crime of walking while black. It's understandable that the UK might not want this.

 

[Agatha]

Just a question here: In the UK, if an unarmed officer gets into trouble, how long does it take to get armed officers to the scene? Two minutes? An hour? Are armed officers on patrol and ready to respond, or does a special team need to be called up, like our SWAT teams? Also, theoretically firearms are mostly banned from civilians in the UK; how hard is it for criminals to actually get guns?

Not being a criminal myself, I really couldn't say how hard it is to get guns here, sorry! Most guns used in crimes here are apparently legally held ones, and are often imitation guns, some of which have been converted to real ones. Knife crime is much more prevalent, probably because it is easier to get hold of a knife than a gun.

The massacres we have had (Dunblane, Hungerford, Whitehaven) have all been perpetrated by people with legally held guns.

This is from 2008.

Armed response officers are always on standby, some of them do traffic work when not needed to do armed response work. So they can be called on immediately, and the response times will depend on how close they are to the incident. We are a small country so except for very rural areas, response times will be quick.

The general attitude of the public and the police is that the answer to gun crime is not to up the ante by arming the police, but to cut down on the number of guns held by criminals.

 

[mbp]

Yes - and, if both were drawn prior to entry...........

What entry?

 

[Soapy Sam]

Where is he getting real grenades?

This is the question uppermost in my mind- and not addressed on the news bulletins I saw. Grenades are not the sort of thing you buy in Tesco's. (Even Harrods might require advance notice).
A grenade is an unlikely urban weapon. Throw one at a house and there's a fair chance of it bouncing off something and landing at your feet.
You need to get it into a room, over a wall, into a space (ideally confined by walls). And why waste a grenade on targets you already shot multiple times?

Malice seems like the only reason- though I note he was smart enough to hand himself in rather than wait for the arrival of armed police. No going out in a blaze of glory. Just a long , safe trial and some J-time where he'll be a big hero. Maybe he'll get a book contract.

I know nobody agrees with me about capital punishment, so may I suggest we find him a job?
Mine clearance in Afghanistan comes to mind.

 

[fuelair]

The area the officers were sent to. The entry point would be the first part of the entire area involved where the rectum breather could have a chance to fire successfully. Without the layout of that location, I do not know precisely where it would be.

Just as an example, it would/could be: single dwelling, fenced - at the first fence entry point (if solid fence, the full approach, if chain link or similar, visual scan - if no visible perp, go in one at a time with one officer keeping track from door + a bit right* and trailing officer door plus a bit the other direction and left. Overlap door.

*depending on weak hand side.