Two unarmed policewomen shot dead in the UK

[ponderingturtle]

Do officers wear body armor in the UK? It's quite common here. Our guys might even have survived the grenade shrapnel, if it was a real grenade.

I know they have, but it is also problematic when the main threat they are facing is knives, so some wear stab vests instead.

 

[mbp]

The area the officers were sent to. The entry point would be the first part of the entire area involved where the rectum breather could have a chance to fire successfully.

So when going to talk to someone who's reported a burglary they should draw their weapons before leaving the car? Really?

Of course the rectum breather could have been waiting for them anywhere en route. So how would they know when they entered the area involved?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

A grenade is an unlikely urban weapon...

Malice seems like the only reason...

That thought crossed my mind: When I heard about his previous killings using a grenade I assumed he only used one because somehow he'd chanced on an opportunity to acquire some, rather than because he thought it was a sensible weapon to choose. And today I have this terrible feeling that he knew he was cornered but just couldn't bear to go quietly while he still had a full clip and a live grenade...

 

[Jack by the hedge]

and, if they automatically popped in a flash-bang before entry...........

I once called the police after I discovered my home had been burgled. If the two young coppers who attended had shoved a flash-bang through the letterbox on arrival... well I suspect there would have been a stiff letter to the chief constable.

 

[Andy_Ross]

A Police Federation survey, conducted in 2006, of 47,000 officers found that 82% were opposed to the idea of arming all police officers.

Armed Response Units are always on patrol and they are usualy Traffic Officers. They drive traffic cars, they are uprated and have all the extra video and NPR numberplate reading rig and the drivers are trained as Traffic Officers in high speed driving and persuit.

 

[LTC8K6]

And occasionally open fire on people for the crime of walking while black. It's understandable that the UK might not want this.

Or running for a train...

 

[LTC8K6]

Yes, stab vests.

There's every reason to think it was a 'real' grenade, as Cregan (allegedly) had already committed one murder using such a thing.

Why would they have done so here (leaving aside the fact that the two officers here never got to the house, the car's engine was still running)? As far as they knew, this was a routine call to the aftermath of a burglary where the householder was there (so the burglar was long gone).

Their expectations would be to have a cup of tea with the householder and advise them about security, check to see if there was likely to be any forensic evidence (and arrange for scenes of crime officers to attend if there was), take a report of what had been stolen and a witness statement from the householder, and put them in touch with Victim Support if they were distressed by the burglary.

If there had been a suggestion of a suspect being on the premises, they would have approached the job differently, but that is not what the call was about.

The officers were killed inside the house, according to the accounts I have read. Can you link to an account where they did not even get to the house?

 

[fuelair]

So when going to talk to someone who's reported a burglary they should draw their weapons before leaving the car? Really?

Of course the rectum breather could have been waiting for them anywhere en route. So how would they know when they entered the area involved?

I started to respond at length and then I thought:"Where the hell did I say they would draw before they left the car?" So I checked, and sure enough I made no mention of the car at all or their egress from it.

Then, I said to myself, "Self, you know it takes time to describe procedures for keeping yourself alive and keeping others either alive (victims) or making them dead (bad guys) and clearly someone here wants to argue away from procedure since they are making statements not in what you wrote and trying to frame it so it appears pointless to follow."

So I am instead going to suggest books which go into all this and have been used in the Hong Kong PD as well as in training the old equiv. of SWAT teams and are available to the public because the public generally cannot access current procedures manuals and training. Fairbairn and Sykes for British - although it got lot's of use in the US -AND Applegate in the US. They are still used as introduction to the basics. For more current (bullet loads, tactical shotguns, laser/red-dot sight use, legal challenges, etc........), see if your local police will show you a copy of their's.

The basics: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_s...rbairn+sykes&sprefix=Fairbairn,stripbooks,204

 

[fuelair]

Minor note - were I the entry officer I would hope the person was asked to be at the open door when I got there "so I would know I was at the right house".

But I am an untrusting person in those types of situation. Helps in that staying alive thing.

 

[geni]

Where is he getting real grenades?

Eastern europe most likely. About the only other options are ex-millitary dating back until at least the 1950s or something from ireland left over from the troubles.

Realisticaly though I'd say eastern europe. Such things are more availible there and the checks on the cross channel ferries aren't up to much.

 

[Nessie]

I'm just saying that in the states, there is no way officers are going into that house on anything but high alert.

Normally. Maybe the UK has changed? Maybe you need to put officer safety at a little higher priority? It's dangerous out there.

A report of a housebreaking with no intelligence of any issue at the address and no indication what so ever the criminals are still there and the US police would attend with guns drawn and ready? No wonder so many people get shot and die in the USA compared to the UK.

The UK police now have CS spray, body armour and battons compared to a trucheon and that was it. So officer safety has been given a higher priority.

But lets face it, even being armed does not stop US police officers being killed, so why would it in the UK?

 

[Nessie]

Every police officer in the U.S. carries a gun, often two. It doesn't seem to interfere with his/her ability to direct traffic, write parking tickets, console lost children etc. But if a thug opens up with gun, the officer is equipped to do more than shout, "Pardon me, that's not cricket!"

But the USA has an attitude to guns not shared by any other Western nation. It has by far the highest number of gun deaths ratio than any other Western nation.

Sorry, I cannot think of any reason why the UK should look to the USA for any form of advice or direction on arming the police. Much closer to home are routinely armed police officers in countries where gun deaths are far lower, such as France as a near neighbour and Australia as a country we have a lot in common with. So I am far more interested in how they do it rather than the USA.

 

[LTC8K6]

A report of a housebreaking with no intelligence of any issue at the address and no indication what so ever the criminals are still there and the US police would attend with guns drawn and ready? No wonder so many people get shot and die in the USA compared to the UK.

The UK police now have CS spray, body armour and battons compared to a trucheon and that was it. So officer safety has been given a higher priority.

But lets face it, even being armed does not stop US police officers being killed, so why would it in the UK?

I said they would not enter the house without their guns ready.

It appears that these officers arrived at an apparently deserted house, and entered it, unaware that the perp was inside for an ambush.

For the owner who called to not be there waiting for them, would be very suspicious after calling in a burglary. I would be very wary of entering the house.

For an unoccupied house to have a burglary called in...that's pretty suspicious.

 

[Nessie]

Just a question here: In the UK, if an unarmed officer gets into trouble, how long does it take to get armed officers to the scene? Two minutes? An hour? Are armed officers on patrol and ready to respond, or does a special team need to be called up, like our SWAT teams? Also, theoretically firearms are mostly banned from civilians in the UK; how hard is it for criminals to actually get guns?

It depends on where the firearm officers are in relation to the incident. It could be seconds or it could be hours. That is the same as in the USA is it not, the police are either nearby or they are not?

Most forces have 24 hour patrolling armed police. That is backed up by a call out system.

Firearms are not banned from UK civilians, theorectically or in reality.

It is easy for top level UK criminals to get guns (handguns and shotguns, others are much harder), hard for low level criminals and generally far harder than it is in the USA, where you have stupid amounts of guns and even arm Mexicans with gay abandon so their criminals can shoot each other and loads of others as well.

 

[Nessie]

I said they would not enter the house without their guns ready.

It appears that these officers arrived at an apparently deserted house, and entered it, unaware that the perp was inside for an ambush.

For the owner who called to not be there waiting for them, would be very suspicious after calling in a burglary. I would be very wary of entering the house.

For an unoccupied house to have a burglary called in...that's pretty suspicious.

Yes, but the USAs version of being wary is based on a very high instance of gun ownership and use, which is not the case here.

The US behaves so differently from the UK with its largely unarmed police and loads of other countries that do have armed police I do not see how any comparison or critique can be made by an American of how the British do policing.

 

[LTC8K6]

Yes, but the USAs version of being wary is based on a very high instance of gun ownership and use, which is not the case here.

The US behaves so differently from the UK with its largely unarmed police and loads of other countries that do have armed police I do not see how any comparison or critique can be made by an American of how the British do policing.

I haven't critiqued the UK police.

In the US, it's likely that the officers dispatched would know that the address was an unoccupied residence.

So, they'd be suspicious the moment they got the call. It would immediately be an odd call.

 

[LTC8K6]

The type of officer you get varies greatly in the US, btw.

Small town officers are completely different from big city cops. The county sheriff's dept is generally much different than the city police, even in rural areas.

 

[Nessie]

I dont know about all forces, but where I am any past calls to a premises flag up when ever that address is entered on the call system.

UK officers also have local knowledge of empty premises, but not the actual status of every single one. Are you saying that the US police have a system where they have immediate and up to date information on the occupancy or vacancy of every single premises in the whole country? If so, that is an incredible data base to maintain.

You also seem to be suggesting that it is most common for occupied premises are broken into. I think it is not unusual for an unoccupied premises to be broken into. It can be kids going to vandalise it through to druggies going to use it as a drugs den to people who go in a strip out any metal, a valuable commoditiy these days.

 

[LTC8K6]

I dont know about all forces, but where I am any past calls to a premises flag up when ever that address is entered on the call system.

UK officers also have local knowledge of empty premises, but not the actual status of every single one. Are you saying that the US police have a system where they have immediate and up to date information on the occupancy or vacancy of every single premises in the whole country? If so, that is an incredible data base to maintain.

You also seem to be suggesting that it is most common for occupied premises are broken into. I think it is not unusual for an unoccupied premises to be broken into. It can be kids going to vandalise it through to druggies going to use it as a drugs den to people who go in a strip out any metal, a valuable commoditiy these days.

I don't know, this whole country is pretty big. Heck. Alaska alone is pretty darn big, as is Texas.

I think they confine their knowledge to their local beat area, which is a bit easier to manage. They generally know that pretty well. Most cops do. They know the hookers, the junkies, the troublemakers, the pimps, etc. They know the crack houses.

There's generally no one to report a break in to a vacant home, and no one would care about people in a known crack house unless it caught on fire or there were gunshots, or a body on the front lawn.

 

[Beerina]

The thing is, the caller is pretty sure the responding officers are unarmed.

Isn't the reasoning that by not carrying guns, the net effect is less violence rather than more? You get murderous assholery like this from time to time but overall less sudden violence?

Of course I have no idea how you'd go about demonstrating that. Maybe vs. other nearby countries where police have guns.