Merged Two Mosques to be built near Ground Zero

[ddt]

As the film explains. It will be demanded as the muslim population increases up to 25% and over.

No it doesn't.

From about 2:15 into the film, it talks about halal food:
"... they will increase pressure on supermarket chains to feature halal on their shelves, along with threats for failure to comply."
2:31: "This is occurring in France, Philippines, Sweden, Switzerland, The Netherlands, Trinidad and Tobago."
2:45: "At this point, they will work to get the ruling government to allow them to rule themselves in their ghettos, under Sharia, under Islamic law."
2:55: ...
3:08: "When Muslims approach 10% of the population, ..."

So according to the film, it is before 10% is reached. 25%, as you claim, is not even mentioned as some sort of magic boundary. And given that halal food is already featured on the shelves, the inference of the above is that they should already be asking for Sharia law in the Netherlands.

So I ask you again for the evidence. I also ask you for evidence that Muslims pressured, e.g., Albert Heijn, to feature halal food on their shelves, with specificity to the threats.

 

[ddt]

Hello I have read a lot about islam let me educate you
*nothing but talking points and fearmongering vids*

How can you not be convinced?!

Maybe because amb can't even accurately reproduce what is claimed in the sources he mentions himself?

 

[A'isha]

You poor deluded fool. Are you talking about Abdul Rauf ? The "gentle and peace loving sufi " ? Isn't this the same man who only 19 days after 9/11 was interviewed on 60 minutes when he called America an "accessory to the crime" and anounced that "Osama bin Laden is made in the USA "
Statements made by Rauf show he supports the destruction of Israel.
" My own personal analysis tells me that a one state solution is a more coherent one than a two-state solution," imam Rauf told an audience in July 2005. The phase " one state solution" is often used by islamic extremists to advocate the destruction of Israel, especially by those parading as moderates. It is said with the knowledge that any one-state solution would result in the Jews being outnumberd in their own land, replacing Israel with a muslim state called Palestine.
Is this the same man who involved himself with the muslim brotherhood, the parent organasation of Hamas that is dedicated to the destruction of Israel bringing the world under sharia law.
Is he also the same man who when the Iranian people rose up against the fraudulent re-election of Ahmadinejad, Rauf took the side of the regime ?
In doing so, he legitimizes the Iranian theocratic style of governance, firmly placing him in the opposite corner of moderates fighting such extremism.

Methinks you have not done your homework properly on our Mr Rauf.

Jesus Christ, am I going to have to do all of this this over again?

Rauf did not blame America for 9/11, saying merely that our support of dictators in the middle east and of the mujahadeen in Afghanistan has contributed to the rise of extremist terrorist networks and that such support has come back to bite us in the form of al-Qaeda and Bin Laden, a position so extreme and America-hating that it's shared by the co-chairs of the 9/11 Commission, a former vice chairman of the National Intelligence Council at the CIA, Bill O'Reilly, and Glenn Beck. And he did that right in the middle of condemning the attacks and denouncing terrorism. In fact, that 60 Minutes special was nothing but a series of American imams and Muslims condemning the terror attacks.

ED BRADLEY: How — how do you feel as a Muslim knowing that people of your faith committed this act that resulted in the loss of probably 6,000 lives?

MR. ABDUL RAUF: It’s painful. But when this thing first happened, everybody in the community said, “Oh, God, let this not be a person from our faith, tradition or from our background.”

MR. BRADLEY: What would you say to — to people in this country, who, looking at what happens in the Middle East, would associate Islam with fanaticism, with terrorism?

MR. ABDUL RAUF: Fanaticism and terrorism have no place in Islam. That’s — that’s just as absurd as associating Hitler with Christianity or — or David Koresh with Christianity. There are always people who will — who will do peculiar things and think that they are doing things in the name of their religion. But — but the Koran — you know, God says in the Koran that they think that they’re doing right, but they’re doing wrong. ...

MR. BRADLEY (voiceover): And throughout the Muslim world, there is also strong opposition to America’s foreign policy, particularly in the Middle East, because of its support of Israel and economic sanctions against Iraq.

MR. ABDUL RAUF: It is a reaction against the policies of the U.S. government, politically, where we espouse principles of democracy and human rights and where we ally ourselves with oppressive regimes in many of these countries.

MR. BRADLEY: Are — are — are you in any way suggesting that we in the United States deserved what happened?

MR. ABDUL RAUF: I wouldn’t say that the United States deserved what happened, but the United States policies were an accessory to the crime that happened.

MR. BRADLEY: O.K. You say that we’re an accessory?

MR. ABDUL RAUF: Yes.

MR. BRADLEY: How?

MR. ABDUL RAUF: Because we have been an accessory to a lot of — of innocent lives dying in the world. In fact, it — in the most direct sense, Osama bin Laden is made in the U.S.A.

Rauf is a supporter of Israel. More specifically, he's a supporter of peace between Israel and the Palestinians, a peace that (he writes in his book) "alleviat[es] the suffering of the Palestinian people and allow them to live in dignity, freedom, and increasing prosperity." However, he also says in the very next sentence that "No plan could offer these benefits to the Palestinians unless it also offered Israelis the safety and security that they need to live their lives in peace."

And far from being a "code word" for advocating the destruction of Israel, Rauf made it absolutely plain at the time he spoke those words that while he may think a single-state solution would work, specifically in the context of resolving the issue of Israeli settlements on Palestinian lands, he has zero problems with a two-state solution, and in fact has written extensively about the benefits of that to both Israelis and Palestinians. As you'd know if you read Rauf's words for yourself, instead of relying on what right-wing quote-mined websites tell you:

SPEAKER: I've compared the soiling of the Koran to the burning to the ground of the Vatican as that which would be the equivalent in emotional response in our world. The question is this. Can Sharon survive politically or physically the eviction from their holy ground of the people that he and his party gave it to [specifically referring to removing Israeli settlements from Palestinian territory]?

IMAM FEISAL ABDUL RAUF: That is a question which is probably more correctly addressed to the Israeli community and to the Jewish community than to me. All I can say is that from my own communications with friends of mine who are Israelis and who are Rabbi's and who are actively involved in trying to effectively implement dialogue across the divide and create an Israel that would be part of the region, there is a lot going on in Israel. Israelis have moved beyond Zionism.

We now have post-Zionism movements in Israel. We have a very broad spectrum of people in Israel who regard Israel as a nation state, as a secular state, as a multicultural state. The very fabric and demographic, and I would say even identity, of Israel has shifted enormously in the last 60 years since its founding. There's always a danger. It only takes one individual to kill someone like Rabin. Rabin was assassinated by a fundamentalist, and there's no doubt that there are those who are against Sharon. But my sense, again from what I've learned, is that those who are supporting the withdrawal from the territories are in the minority - I am sorry, those who support the withdrawal are in the majority. If not, I don't think Sharon would have had the broadbase to do that.

The differences, perhaps, may lie on whether the solution lies in the two-state solution or in a one-state solution. I believe that you had someone here recently who spoke about having a one land and two people's solution to Israel. And I personally - my own personal analysis tells me that a one-state solution is a more coherent one than a two-state solution. But anyway it goes, there is no doubt in my mind that once there is peace, and there will have to be a peace in the region, the fallout of that will be enormously positive.

The result of that will be important bonds of trade between Israel and Palestine and Egypt and Jordan and Lebanon and Syria and with increasing trade relationships. Trade has a very bonding power indeed to many people. I even suggested, partly only tongue-in-cheek, that if the now approaching $200 billion that the United States expended in Iraq were to be spent in Israel it would have been the equivalent of about maybe $40,000 to every Israeli and every Palestinian in the region. And with that kind of funding you can transform a lot of people's hearts and minds. You know, a bumper sticker which says: $150,000 for a family of four, is quite appealing to many, especially if you add permanent residence to South Australia.

Rauf also has absolutely zip to do with the Muslim Brotherhood. The accusation is that his father, Dr. Muhammad Abdul Rauf, was a "contemporary" of Brotherhood founder al-Banna, and went to Al-Azhar University. Which is true, in the sense that both were born in Egypt at roughly the same time. Other than that, though, there's no connection whatsoever, and Rauf's father was not extremist in the least. A dean at Al-Azhar university said of Rauf's father “He is well known in Azhar and he is known for his moderation. During his time, there wasn’t this battle between moderation and terrorism. ... The general picture of Islam and its scholars was one of moderation. The extremists at that time were a minority and they were in isolated pockets in the Muslim world. Extremism had not entered the mainstream.”

After graduation, Rauf's father established a college in Malaysia at the behest of (and endowed by) the sultan of Malaysia at the time. This guy, in fact, who was apparently such an Islamic extremist himself that he was ruler under the British when Malaysia was controlled by them, and was restored to the throne by the British after the Japanese occupation kicked him out during World War II. King George VI also knighted him as a member of the Distinguished Order of Saint Michael and Saint George.

Rauf's father then moved to New York in 1965 and was head of the Islamic Center of New York and the Islamic Center of Washington up until 1980. Then, the Prime Minister of Malaysia at the time invited him back to act as rector for several colleges and universities until his retirement in 1992. After that, he moved back to the US, living in Washington DC with his family until passing away in Bethesda, Maryland in 2004.

You can read his obituary here.

And as for the whole Iranian thing, he wrote an article to President Obama in the wake of the election controversy, saying how Obama can use the opportunity to open a dialogue with Iran and start negotiations.

Contrary to your assertions, it's not an essay in support of the regime, but advice to the President on how he can use the opportunity presented by the election struggle last year to make diplomatic overtures. "This provides a chance for Obama to show Iranians that he understands their Islamic Republic and how it developed -- and to lay the groundwork for negotiations once the election dispute is resolved."

First, he simply describes what its origin and goals were, in very unadorned historical terms. Then he advises President Obama to tell Iran he understands the origins and goals that were just described.

That would send a resounding message to the Iranian presidential candidates and their supporters that President Obama understands the ideals of the Islamic Republic and that he seeks a peaceful and harmonious Iran that has the unquestioned support of a majority of its population.

As a result, President Obama may well find that no matter who is elected president of Iran, the chances of a negotiated rapprochement between the two countries would be far greater than it has been in the past 30 years.

Such a rapprochement will help resolve conflicts from Palestine and Israel through Iraq and Afghanistan to Pakistan[.]

In other words, it's advice on how to couch diplomatic overtures to Iran in a specific way (the best way to appeal to the Iranian mindset in the wake of the election struggle), so as to take advantage of Iran's current political situation in order to open up diplomatic relations, along with the necessary historical context for that advice, not a general "hey, the current Iranian regime is cool!" essay, no matter what you seem to think.

Any questions, amb?

 

[bikerdruid]

amb will not be convinced.
blind haters will not listen to reason.

 

[amb]

As do people who live their lives in limbo, or get around wearing blinkers, or rose colored glasses.

 

[ddt]

As do people who live their lives in limbo, or get around wearing blinkers, or rose colored glasses.

Frankly I had expected apologies for blatantly lying about the contents of a video you referred to yourself. Or maybe even some evidence for the claims in that video.

 

[DC]

As do people who live their lives in limbo, or get around wearing blinkers, or rose colored glasses.

you are like a twoofer.

 

[ddt]

The killing of livestock the halal way is not tolerated by the RSPCA in the Western world.

The RSPCA is a British organization and has no jurisdiction. Some countries allow halal (and kosher) slaughter, others under conditions. See below.

It means slitting the throat and letting the animal bleed to death in an agonising way.
That's another point against islam. Cruelty to our fellow inhabitants of this planet.

In fact, halal rules are designed with the animal welfare in mind. The slitting of the throat has to occur in such a fashion that death occurs near-instantly. Furthermore, Islamic food rules go further than just instruct how the animals must be slaughtered, but also emphasize that during the lifetime of the animals, they have to be treated humanely.

Amongst others, the Dutch animal welfare organization Wakker Dier mentions this on this page about the bio-industry and says that food in Holland sold with a "Halal" certification is only slaughtered halal but mostly originates from the bio-industry where animals are kept in inhumane conditions, and that Muslims, to eat really halal food, should only buy meat with an EKO-certification signifying the animal was bred in a humane way.

They also cite imam Galal Ali Amer, who his involved with halal certification: "Halal cannot be reconciled with the rogue bio-industry, animal grief and current mass consumption".

Wakker Dier also calls against slaughter without stunning the animal, which is in fact possible under halal rules, if the stunning is reversible. Some countries allow halal slaughter under these conditions.

 

[marksman]

amb will not be convinced.
blind haters will not listen to reason.

As do people who live their lives in limbo, or get around wearing blinkers, or rose colored glasses.

So in which of those categories do you place yourself? You have been shown time and time again how you have misread Rauf, have relied on biased materials in your opinions and you refuse to allow facts get in the way of your narrative. So which are you... living in limbo, wearing blinkers, or wearing rose-colored glasses? You don't seem to be the rose-colored glasses type. So I guess it's limbo or blinkers.

But wouldn't it be better to actually accept the facts that have been presented as true and change your position accordingly?

 

[Darat]

The RSPCA is a British organization and has no jurisdiction. Some countries allow halal (and kosher) slaughter, others under conditions. See below.

..snip...

And to emphasis the point the RSPCA is a charity, and its reach is not even UK wide (for example in Scotland there is no RSPCA). Also Halal/Kosher slaughter is permitted under UK and EU law, (I am all for that method of slaughter being outlawed as I believe that it no longer represents a humane way of slaughtering animals.)

 

[Taarkin]

Statements made by Rauf show he supports the destruction of Israel.
" My own personal analysis tells me that a one state solution is a more coherent one than a two-state solution,"

Cool, you agree that Rauf thinks that people of different faiths can and should coexist. I'm glad you finally realized he isn't an Islamunist who wants to impose his religion on everyone

 

[Lurker]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia

So if Rauf is a believer in your version of Sharia Law, why isn't his wife in a burka?

 

[quadraginta]

So if Rauf is a believer in your version of Sharia Law, why isn't his wife in a burka?

She's in disguise.

 

[amb]

The RSPCA is a British organization and has no jurisdiction. Some countries allow halal (and kosher) slaughter, others under conditions. See below.



In fact, halal rules are designed with the animal welfare in mind. The slitting of the throat has to occur in such a fashion that death occurs near-instantly. Furthermore, Islamic food rules go further than just instruct how the animals must be slaughtered, but also emphasize that during the lifetime of the animals, they have to be treated humanely.

Amongst others, the Dutch animal welfare organization Wakker Dier mentions this on this page about the bio-industry and says that food in Holland sold with a "Halal" certification is only slaughtered halal but mostly originates from the bio-industry where animals are kept in inhumane conditions, and that Muslims, to eat really halal food, should only buy meat with an EKO-certification signifying the animal was bred in a humane way.

They also cite imam Galal Ali Amer, who his involved with halal certification: "Halal cannot be reconciled with the rogue bio-industry, animal grief and current mass consumption".

Wakker Dier also calls against slaughter without stunning the animal, which is in fact possible under halal rules, if the stunning is reversible. Some countries allow halal slaughter under these conditions.

We here in Australia at the moment have a live sheep export market that exports to Middle East mainly muslim countries. Animal welfare agencies have shown film where the sheep are sold in an open market, bundled into a boot of a car, sometimes with broken limbs and driven to gawd knows where.
The welfare of the animal is the furthermost thing on their minds.
Slitting the throat of an animal is their way of making sure there's no blood left in the carcass. The only way to assure that happens is to prolong the heart pumping out all the blood as long as possible. It is not instant death, far from it.

 

[DC]

We here in Australia at the moment have a live sheep export market that exports to Middle East mainly muslim countries. Animal welfare agencies have shown film where the sheep are sold in an open market, bundled into a boot of a car, sometimes with broken limbs and driven to gawd knows where.
The welfare of the animal is the furthermost thing on their minds.
Slitting the throat of an animal is their way of making sure there's no blood left in the carcass. The only way to assure that happens is to prolong the heart pumping out all the blood as long as possible. It is not instant death, far from it.

doesnt change anything about the falseness of the claims in the propaganda video you posted, but i guess you dont want to comment on that......

because you know they are evil

 

[amb]

doesnt change anything about the falseness of the claims in the propaganda video you posted, but i guess you dont want to comment on that......

because you know they are evil

It may be propaganda to you because you don't agree with any of the statements in that vid. Dr Goebbels of the Third Reich believed his own propaganda, and stated that if you tell a lie enough times, people will think it's the truth. The so-called moderate muslims are using just such propaganda and calling everyone who disagrees an islamophobia racist.
I dare anyone to attend a mosque and ask to be given the pulpit to criticise islam, see how far you'll get.

 

[DC]

It may be propaganda to you because you don't agree with any of the statements in that vid. Dr Goebbels of the Third Reich believed his own propaganda, and stated that if you tell a lie enough times, people will think it's the truth. The so-called moderate muslims are using just such propaganda and calling everyone who disagrees an islamophobia racist.
I dare anyone to attend a mosque and ask to be given the pulpit to criticise islam, see how far you'll get.

holy cristmas cow......

that is why you believe the video to be the truth.

 

[amb]

I don't wish to be banned from this forum. So let us agree to disagree. Go bug someone else please. I hear they are looking for people like you in Iran.

 

[DC]

I don't wish to be banned from this forum. So let us agree to disagree. Go bug someone else please. I hear they are looking for people like you in Iran.

THey need Atheists in Iran?

And , there has been pointed out to you several factual errors or lies in your video, but you do not even listen to it, you just keep on preaching your believe, no matter that your believe is contradicted by reality.

Look they listed Switzerland as one of the endagered countries. Halal and Kosher meet, is allowed to be importet, and that is only becuase of religous freedom, and it was actually because of the large Jewish communities we have.
Other than that, the Moslems in Switzerland are a minority with limited rights.
Propaganda like you are spreading, led to the bigoted swiss people vote to bann minarets. every other freaking religion is allowed to build a freaking tower, only moslems not. that is pure bigotery.
So Moslems are not gaining rights, they are loosing them.

others have po9inted out that the claims about the Netherlands was worng.

you dont care, just like Goebbels, you even beleieve your own propaganda.

and it is you that needs to go to a Mosque and critizize Islam, so they can point out the misunderstandings you have. But i guess in your world, they would only lie to you anyway........

 

[amb]

Look, I have the uttermost contempt for all religion. In the last few decades though, it's islam that causes most of the terrorist atrocities in the world. Not Judaism, not xtians or Buddhist or even Hindus, but only islam the so-called religion of peace. The only religion that commits murder even on family members in the name of their allah. The only religion that in the modern age still treats women as second class citizens. And the only religion where it is more than just a religion but a way of life, they actually live it according to the qu'ran.