Merged Two Mosques to be built near Ground Zero

Rauf speaks:

The wonderful outpouring of support for our right to build this community center from across the social, religious and political spectrum seriously undermines the ability of anti-American radicals to recruit young, impressionable Muslims by falsely claiming that America persecutes Muslims for their faith. These efforts by radicals at distortion endanger our national security and the personal security of Americans worldwide. This is why Americans must not back away from completion of this project. If we do, we cede the discourse and, essentially, our future to radicals on both sides. The paradigm of a clash between the West and the Muslim world will continue, as it has in recent decades at terrible cost. It is a paradigm we must shift.
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President Obama and Mayor Michael Bloomberg both spoke out in support of our project. As I traveled overseas, I saw firsthand how their words and actions made a tremendous impact on the Muslim street and on Muslim leaders. It was striking: a Christian president and a Jewish mayor of New York supporting the rights of Muslims. Their statements sent a powerful message about what America stands for, and will be remembered as a milestone in improving American-Muslim relations.​
Well that all sounds well and good, but wouldn't a secret Islamist say just that kind of thing to pull the wool over the eyes of America in order to pursue his secret goal of imposing Extremist Sharia Law on the US?
 
Fishstick said:
If you followed the link you would see the majority of those terrorism numbers are overwhelmingly things like bombings and arson, with a much smaller amount of shootings and robberies. Not so much drug wars. Here's another graph because I love pie:
[qimg]http://www.fishstick.eu/terrorismbyevent.jpg[/qimg]
(Also source FBI Database, Terrorism by event 1980 - 2005)
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:boggled: So the Latino "terrorism" is because they are catholics?


What happens in islamic territories with a vastly different government, culture and demographic is not really relevant to what happens in the US or Europe now is it?
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Did I pretend to be talking only of what happens in Europe or the USA? You seem to have limited yourself to that. Islamic "governments" like Hamas, Hizbullah, Iran and more are the primary source of inspiration for the violence done in Allah's name, and most certainly says something about the values of Islamic theocracy and where it heads.

They would be if they suggested such a thing. Good thing they didn't! Merkel in fact made a good point that it was important not to associate violence with a particular religion:
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Merkle said the obvious CYA comments, to the effect that it must be quite coincidental that social problem in Islamic communities, and self imposed ghettos, appear to have anything to do with Islam. Believe that if you wish. I suggest that Islam is fundamentally incompatible with the modern age.


I could not find Sarkozy's statements on having a major violence problem with their muslim population. Can you source it?
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As to Sarkozy, I never quoted him, but the news in France clearly doesn't reach where you are.
 
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Elind said:
I wasn't aware the majority of US terrorism was committed by Latinos. I presume that the definition of terrorism here includes drug gangs. If that makes you happy about dismissing religious justified terrorism, be my guest.
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Why don't you click on the link and learn something rather than make mistaken assumptions?

If you had paid attention to anything I said earlier, instead of your cherry picking sentences,
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:confused: What the hell are you talking about?

I also presume that you think
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Y'know, whatever side of whatever issue you're on - if you start a sentence with a phrase like "I also presume that you think," you have wandered beyond the bounds of intellectually honest behavior.
 
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Praktik said:
Rauf speaks:

Well that all sounds well and good, but wouldn't a secret Islamist say just that kind of thing to pull the wool over the eyes of America in order to pursue his secret goal of imposing Extremist Sharia Law on the US?
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On the one hand, discounting your flowery suggestions, yes that is what would be said, and in fact is straight out of the play book, although I don't see it as the conspiracy you suggest, just spin.

In the case of Rauf, I would first want to hear him refute his alleged comments about USA partial responsibility for causing 9/11, and hear his direct opinion on the likes of Hamas and others he doesn't consider, or won't say, are terrorist organizations.

However, my immediate criticism of him regarding your quote is that we should have been hearing those words constantly, and even in more forceful terms for the past 10 years, and if he wants to build bridges, we should have come to know him before this project was announced, not after.
 
Elind said:
In the case of Rauf, I would first want to hear him refute his alleged comments about USA partial responsibility for causing 9/11.
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Yes please! And I await the same from Alan Colmes, Noam Chomsky, Amy Goodman and Robert Fisk - all of whom have expressed the same opinion and yet haven't committed any terrorist acts or been associated with terrorism (that we know of!)

Elind said:
and hear his direct opinion on the likes of Hamas and others he doesn't consider, or won't say, are terrorist organizations.
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I've read many clear-cut condemnations of terrorism directly from Rauf in this very thread. Have you read from the start or are you a late-comer?
 
Elind said:
In the case of Rauf, I would first want to hear him refute his alleged comments about USA partial responsibility for causing 9/11, and hear his direct opinion on the likes of Hamas and others he doesn't consider, or won't say, are terrorist organizations.
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Sure.

http://www.cordobainitiative.org/?q=content/frequently-asked-questions

Clearing Up False Charges Made Against Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf:

“On 60 Minutes, the Imam said that American Foreign policy is an accessory to terrorism”
The ‘60 Minutes’ piece was completely incorrect as the statement was edited out of context. In the full interview, Imam Feisal describes the mistake the CIA made in the 1980s by financing Osama Bin Laden and strengthening the Taliban. This view is widely shared today by journalists, foreign policy experts and the US government. Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf underlines the importance of not supporting “friends of convenience” who may later become our enemies. This is common sense.

Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf is an American who takes his role as a citizen-ambassador very seriously. He is frequently requested by the US State Department to tour Muslim majority and western countries to speak about the merits of American ideals and Muslim integration into Western society. At the request of the FBI after 9/11, he provided cultural training to hundreds of FBI agents.

“Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf won’t condemn terrorism”
Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf has always condemned terrorism. Here are his words from his 2004 book, What’s Right with Islam is What’s Right with America: “The truth is that killing innocent people is always wrong – and no argument or excuse, no matter how deeply believed, can ever make it right. No religion on earth condones the killing of innocent people; no faith tradition tolerates the random killing of our brothers and sisters on this earth. God does not want us to kill each other.” He has repeated the same thing in hundreds of speeches around the world.

“Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf has not condemned Hamas”
Hamas is both a political movement and a terrorist organization. When Hamas commits atrocious acts of terror, those actions should be condemned. Imam Feisal has forcefully and consistently condemned all forms of terrorism, including those committed by Hamas, as un-Islamic. In his 2004 book, he even went so far as to include a copy of the Fatwa issued after 9/11 by the most respected clerics of Egypt defining the 9/11 attack as an un-Islamic act of terror and giving permission to Muslims in the U.S. armed forces to fight against those Muslims who committed this act of terror. Imam Feisal included this in his book to prove that terrorism must be fought even if Muslims have to fight fellow Muslims to stop it.
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Happy now?

However, my immediate criticism of him regarding your quote is that we should have been hearing those words constantly, and even in more forceful terms for the past 10 years, and if he wants to build bridges, we should have come to know him before this project was announced, not after.
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He's written op-ed pieces, spoken at interfaith events. and given numerous interviews, in addition to writing an entire book promoting Western/Islamic cooperation.

If you didn't know anything about Rauf before the Park51 controversy blew up, it's not because he's been quiet about his views.
 
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Elind said:
In the case of Rauf, I would first want to hear him refute his alleged comments about USA partial responsibility for causing 9/11
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Praktik said:
Yes please! And I await the same from Alan Colmes, Noam Chomsky, Amy Goodman and Robert Fisk - all of whom have expressed the same opinion and yet haven't committed any terrorist acts or been associated with terrorism (that we know of!)
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Oh and on top of Extremist Radicals like Rauf and lefties like the ones I mentioned there's also the lefty-terrorist rag The American Conservative that talks like them too about 9/11:

The obstacles...[Osama]...faced consisted of the divisions in sects, beliefs, and world visions within Islam; hostile governments ruling in Islamic countries, virtually all of whom regarded his kind of Islamic radicalism as a threat to their rule and were determined to repress it; and the attitude of most Muslims, loyal to their creed but unwilling to sacrifice what security and well-being they had in his kind of jihad.
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There was, however, one good way to overcome these obstacles...that way was to make the United States, already the Great Satan in much of the Muslim world for a variety of reasons—its support of Israel against the Palestinians, its support of corrupt dictatorships and secular regimes, its encouragement of Iraq’s war against Iran and toleration of Saddam Hussein’s atrocities, its later conquest, humiliation, and ongoing punishment of the Iraqi people through sanctions, its long record of imperialism, its greed for Arab oil, its military occupation of sacred Muslim soil, its penetration of Muslim societies with its decadent culture and values—declare open war on him and his followers united in a true, heroic Islamic resistance movement.​
These views on 9/11 are widespread and are only heretical in circles where proudly displayed patriotism counts more than substance..;) Heck, I don't see much wrong with the sentiment that certain facets of American foreign policy over the years contributed to the 9/11 attacks - I've always seen the tendency to ascribe the attacks to an implacable evil only as an expression of wilfull myopia.

These views are no indicator of potential for extremism, in fact the view is pretty mainstream even if you don't see it in certain outlets, who do (I agree) consider the views "extreme" - but then again, I don't let Monica Crowley and Michelle Malkin arbitrate what's "extreme" and what's not for me...;)
 
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Rauf wrote an op-ed in today's New York Times, regarding his vision for the mosque.

Some sample quotes:

Our broader mission — to strengthen relations between the Western and Muslim worlds and to help counter radical ideology — lies not in skirting the margins of issues that have polarized relations within the Muslim world and between non-Muslims and Muslims. It lies in confronting them as a joint multifaith, multinational effort.

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At Cordoba House, we envision shared space for community activities, like a swimming pool, classrooms and a play space for children. There will be separate prayer spaces for Muslims, Christians, Jews and men and women of other faiths. The center will also include a multifaith memorial dedicated to victims of the Sept. 11 attacks.

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Cordoba House will be built on the two fundamental commandments common to Judaism, Christianity and Islam: to love the Lord our creator with all of our hearts, minds, souls and strength; and to love our neighbors as we love ourselves. We want to foster a culture of worship authentic to each religious tradition, and also a culture of forging personal bonds across religious traditions.

I do not underestimate the challenges that will be involved in bringing our work to completion. (Construction has not even begun yet.) I know there will be interest in our financing, and so we will clearly identify all of our financial backers.
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To borrow a quote from Dan Amira's amusingly mock-alarmist take on Rauf's words above, in New York Magazine, "Chilling. You truly are a madman, Rauf."

EDIT: D'oh! Didn't realize this was the same thing Praktik quoted in his post (I hadn't read the op-ed at that point). In retrospect, it really should have looked familiar to me, since we both quoted some of the same parts.
 
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The more I read about this guy the more I realise what a terrible threat he represents to the American way of life - "...love our neighbors as we love ourselves..." the bloke is a commie!!!!
 
Darat said:
The more I read about this guy the more I realise what a terrible threat he represents to the American way of life - "...love our neighbors as we love ourselves..." the bloke is a commie!!!!
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2 Corinthians 11:12-15: "But what I am doing, I will continue to do, that I may cut off opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the matter about which they are boasting. For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their deeds."

Beware the wolf in sheep's clothing! Its right there in the bible!
 
Praktik said:
2 Corinthians 11:12-15: "But what I am doing, I will continue to do, that I may cut off opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the matter about which they are boasting. For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their deeds."

Beware the wolf in sheep's clothing! Its right there in the bible!
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I'm sure someone will be along any minute to post about taqiyyah. Perhaps our resident Muslim-expert himself, amb.

I hear he's almost as knowledgeable as an actual inman.
 
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