Merged Two Mosques to be built near Ground Zero

Skeptic Ginger said:
More evidence no one is paying much attention to what GreNME and I have posted, and maybe only Cleon has noticed: This particular mosque/Islamic center was always intended to be a center for building bridges of peace. I'm going to keep posting this until more people notice. Links are in post 616.

From the NYTs DECEMBER 2009:

And

RANT! This whole sad sad episode once again has the Democrats being played the fool and falling hook line and sinker for a contrived right wing con led and fed by right wing bigots.

Look how easily the mob has been stirred to hatred. Here are some moderate Muslims who want to build bridges and instead now they've been set up by a couple of very loud bigoted right wing bloggers with the force behind them of Fox News and unethical politicians all too ready to use the event for personal political gain. Now instead of being a force for moderate Muslims, Fox and the bloggers are stirring up fear and loathing against those supposedly not to be trusted, probably terrorists, planning their next attack, evil Muslims. :(

What a friggin shame. At least some of the liberals get it, but many of them have fallen for the same right wing scam one more time. Good for you Pelosi, shame on you Reid and Dean.

And shame on all of you in this thread who fell for the right wing bigots leading the mob telling you to hate these people who are on our side. I know most of you won't want to consider you've been conned and will maintain your position that it really was your sentiment, that you get it because of the pain of people who lost folks on 911, that you weren't fooled into your position.

Did you know this center was meant to be a symbol AGAINST terrorism and extremists Muslims? A place of peace, a center AGAINST terrorism, think about it. If that offends people what are they thinking? That no Muslim can apologize for the worst among them? Do you care that the anti-Muslim fearmongering was initiated by a hate filled blogger? Were you aware that people in the area who heard about the center were in favor of it until the right wing bigoted campaign began?
Sigh....so friggin sad. And I'm supposedly the intolerant one because I support the banning the full face covering Hijab because I believe it sends a message against the cultural oppression of women.

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You don't neet to shout to me. I was merely confused by Thaiboxerken's post about Fox's support.
 
I have never seen the word bigot thrown around so freely. The meaning is going to end up on the same pile as "theory" after the creationists finished with it.

Americans aren't mostly bigots, and they have had little problem with American Muslims.

Americans do however know what flavor most of its attackers and plotters have been, and not only the WTC by any means, and not only terrorism either. They also read polls of attitudes in the Muslim world towards the USA, or West in general.

I think there is a real distinction made, even if it is primarily a gut distinction, between a Muslim person and the concept of Islam, just as many protestants probably have Catholic friends, yet don't think much of the Vatican.

To many this project has become a symbol for Islam, not a bridging project by American Muslims. For that I blame the naivety, and possibly pride, of the planners more than the real bigots like Rush or Geller.

(I know..I used the word twice)
 
Elind said:
No it doesn't because it is not illegal for the Saudis or anyone else to fund it, once properly laundered.

I am only saying I wouldn't like foreigners doing it. Why would they want to send money here for swimming pools and the like anyway, when Gazans are in poverty?

As to no money has been raised; I don't buy it. I've already said, nobody plans a project this size and waits for money to rain down from Allah. They have much of it pledged.
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So your entire criticism here hinges on argument from incredulity instead of actually having anything resembling proof. Assuming something that hasn't even happened is even close to a rational criticism is ridiculous. As for your objection to foreign funding, keep that in mind the next time a Catholic anything is built, considering the funding is often funneled through or "laundered" by Rome.

Elind said:
I have never seen the word bigot thrown around so freely. The meaning is going to end up on the same pile as "theory" after the creationists finished with it.

Americans aren't mostly bigots, and they have had little problem with American Muslims.
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Right, and that's why a political party in the US decided to accuse one of the candidates running for president of being a Muslim-- because America has little problem with Muslims. That's why today a huge portion of the US still believes this ridiculous accusation (linky). Yup, Americans have had little problem with Muslims since 9/11. More than 800 federal investigations (meaning not counting state investigations) into hate crimes against Muslims since 9/11-- which isn't even getting into discrimination cases or even attempting to guess at unreported numbers-- and you claim there's been "little problem" with Muslims in America. Mosques and masjids are being protested or blocked in different locations across the country, and yet this case gets the exception that it's not about bigotry?

You can't even ask an intellectually honest question and accept the answer regarding this project, yet you're dismissing the allegations of bigotry why? It's clear that the group being Muslim is the primary (and pretty much sole) factor in people's opposition, and that basically falls under bigotry.
 
Elind said:
I have never seen the word bigot thrown around so freely. The meaning is going to end up on the same pile as "theory" after the creationists finished with it.

Americans aren't mostly bigots, and they have had little problem with American Muslims.

Americans do however know what flavor most of its attackers and plotters have been, and not only the WTC by any means, and not only terrorism either. They also read polls of attitudes in the Muslim world towards the USA, or West in general.

I think there is a real distinction made, even if it is primarily a gut distinction, between a Muslim person and the concept of Islam, just as many protestants probably have Catholic friends, yet don't think much of the Vatican.

To many this project has become a symbol for Islam, not a bridging project by American Muslims. For that I blame the naivety, and possibly pride, of the planners more than the real bigots like Rush or Geller.

(I know..I used the word twice)
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Why should followers of Islam hide behind nondescript doors while Christians are free to build massive structures promoting their chosen faith?
 
GreNME said:
You can't even ask an intellectually honest question and accept the answer regarding this project, yet you're dismissing the allegations of bigotry why? It's clear that the group being Muslim is the primary (and pretty much sole) factor in people's opposition, and that basically falls under bigotry.
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I haven't dismissed allegations of bigotry, only questioned how it is a catch all phrase for you and some others.

I, and many, make a distinction between people of any faith who go about their daily lives essentially like anyone else, and those who make their living promoting, or exploiting, a religion. That does not apply to Muslims alone, they just happen to be the topic of the day. Not long ago it was the Pope and Catholic priests, and we could talk about others too.

In my humble opinion, this project is more about the people promoting it than the average Muslim in the American street.

I think I've pretty much exhausted my explanations, and repetition gets boring, not to mention my lack of time to explore other topics of interest.

I'm going to try to move on.
 
You're not even trying to make any kind of statement, assessment, or argument based on anything resembling facts, Elind. I've pointed you right to their site themselves and you're still mischaracterizing the whole thing.
 
Elind said:
I have never seen the word bigot thrown around so freely. The meaning is going to end up on the same pile as "theory" after the creationists finished with it.

Americans aren't mostly bigots, and they have had little problem with American Muslims.
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I don't know if Americans are or are not "mostly bigots," but as I said two pages ago, the recent Time Magazine poll says that about 30 percent of Americans1 believe that Muslims should not be eligible to sit on the Supreme Court or to run for president. So pretty close to half of the opponents are very clearly bigots.


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1) 30% is merely the percentage of people willing to admit their bigotry to a telephone pollster.
 
amb said:
Let me get this straight. What is implied here is that more than 60% of Americans are bigots? :confused:
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If you consider that there isn't a specific word for 'just a little bigoted' and include the 'just a little bigoted' in the count, then yes.

Are you denying that there is a large number of Americans who harbor at least a twinge of sentiment that Muslims are different, aren't really one of us, aren't likely to be real Americans, must be more supportive of 'their own kind' than of Americans... is it really that hard to see why 60% of Americans in some polls think it is perfectly reasonable to oppose an Islamic center that was originally planned as a statement against 911 terrorism?

Is it that hard to see that many of those 60% are hardly even aware of what they are thinking. Muslims died in the WTC attack. Muslims died trying to rescue others. Why isn't their families' grief important? Yet it is nothing for people to say, "I'm not condemning them all but 'those people' are offensive to want to build an Islamic center near Ground Zero."
 
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Bell said:
You don't neet to shout to me. I was merely confused by Thaiboxerken's post about Fox's support.
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I wasn't shouting specifically at you. I am expressing my frustration at all the people who won't admit they are prejudiced against 'those people'. I'm frustrated more people are not speaking out against the bigotry here and instead are justifying it.
 
Elind said:
I have never seen the word bigot thrown around so freely. The meaning is going to end up on the same pile as "theory" after the creationists finished with it.

Americans aren't mostly bigots, and they have had little problem with American Muslims.

Americans do however know what flavor most of its attackers and plotters have been, and not only the WTC by any means, and not only terrorism either. They also read polls of attitudes in the Muslim world towards the USA, or West in general.

I think there is a real distinction made, even if it is primarily a gut distinction, between a Muslim person and the concept of Islam, just as many protestants probably have Catholic friends, yet don't think much of the Vatican.

To many this project has become a symbol for Islam, not a bridging project by American Muslims. For that I blame the naivety, and possibly pride, of the planners more than the real bigots like Rush or Geller.

(I know..I used the word twice)
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It seems to me that our collective memory of viewing all Japanese during WWII as 'very likely might be on the other side' has faded sufficiently that not many recognize this is the same thing.
 
amb said:
Let me get this straight. What is implied here is that more than 60% of Americans are bigots? :confused:
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thaiboxerken said:
Or pandering to bigots or tricked by bigots.
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amb said:
Seems like an awful lot of people to me!!
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It is an awful lot of people. When you have examples like a political candidate accused of being a Muslim being considered a pejorative, that says a lot about the national attitude in general. That's not to mention some 800 federal investigations of hate crimes against Muslims since 9/11, the fact that this cultural center isn't the only one being opposed by the core group behind making this a public issue of opposition (instead of approval, as it started out), or the fact that as public opinion of the president goes more negative the belief that he's Muslim has increased.
 
Elind said:
I haven't dismissed allegations of bigotry, only questioned how it is a catch all phrase for you and some others.
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Because other than the longer version, 'a prejudiced person', I don't have a better substitute that conveys the underlying problem.

Elind said:
I, and many, make a distinction between people of any faith who go about their daily lives essentially like anyone else, and those who make their living promoting, or exploiting, a religion. That does not apply to Muslims alone, they just happen to be the topic of the day. Not long ago it was the Pope and Catholic priests, and we could talk about others too.

In my humble opinion, this project is more about the people promoting it than the average Muslim in the American street.

I think I've pretty much exhausted my explanations, and repetition gets boring, not to mention my lack of time to explore other topics of interest.

I'm going to try to move on.
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The problem with this reasoning is it doesn't apply to why people are generally against this mosque/Islamic center. It's a red herring. If it makes you feel better to say your personal reasons is/are [parking, traffic, any proselytizing, destroying any more of historic NYC] and you really know in your heart your personal objection here has nothing to do with how you view 'those people', I hereby absolve you of belonging to the group I am stereotyping as bigoted. I'm sure others will also absolve you.


But maybe you might also want to ask yourself, how do I really feel about 'those people'?
 
Chaos said:
Something else... a couple of questions for amb and all the others who keep trotting out "public opinion" as a reason to piss on the Bill of Rights:

Suppose I could show you a poll that said 70% of all Whites in the South oppose civil rights for Blacks, would you argue that these civil rights for Blacks should be abolished? If not, why not?

Suppose I could show you a poll that said 70% of all Democrats oppose voting rights for Republicans, do you think Republicans should lose their voting rights? If not, why not?

Suppose I could show you a poll that said 70% of the world population thought the US should surrender its self-governance and return to being a British colony, would you argue that this should be done? If not, why not?
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Any answers to this one? I mean, surely all the fine patriots and defenders of the American Way of Life here certainly have thought about all this, and can present a rational and coherent reply to these questions?
 
Chaos said:
Any answers to this one? I mean, surely all the fine patriots and defenders of the American Way of Life here certainly have thought about all this, and can present a rational and coherent reply to these questions?
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I fully agree with the last statement. That will teach you Americans some civilty :boxedin:
 
Chaos said:
Any answers to this one? I mean, surely all the fine patriots and defenders of the American Way of Life here certainly have thought about all this, and can present a rational and coherent reply to these questions?
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All of those involve the government stepping in to limit rights. According to at least one of the concern trolls, it doesn't count as bigotry if a bunch of private citizens were to plant a burning cross on their lawn and convince them to leave.
 
Ladewig said:
I don't know if Americans are or are not "mostly bigots," but as I said two pages ago, the recent Time Magazine poll says that about 30 percent of Americans1 believe that Muslims should not be eligible to sit on the Supreme Court or to run for president. So pretty close to half of the opponents are very clearly bigots.


...................................
1) 30% is merely the percentage of people willing to admit their bigotry to a telephone pollster.
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Probably more than would say the same about atheists. I'm an atheist, but I don't really consider them bigots; just ignorant about many things.
 
Elind said:
In my humble opinion, this project is more about the people promoting it than the average Muslim in the American street.
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Question: Why should your opinion be given any weight or consideration if you cannot offer any facts or evidence which support the formation of that opinion?
 
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