Truthers and anti-Semitism

ref said:
You are on the right track here. There wasn't any plan to start a "truth movement" by any group of people. Many of those who first came up with popular truther theories were anti-semitic. But a fact is, that all of them were not.

For example, Jared Israel came up with the NORAD stand down theory, which is still largely supported by almost every member of the TM. But Jared Israel is a strong supporter of Israel and an avid opposer of any anti-semitic conspiracy theories.

Griffin supports Jared Israel's NORAD stand down theories. Does this mean now, that Griffin is not anti-semitic after all? Of course not, neither does him quoting Bollyn make him anti-semitic.

People here have to understand that these TM leaders want these theories, regardless of the people who came up with them. In many (or most) occasions they may not even know who first came up with these ideas. They just know that this or that theory fits their world view, and they adopt that theory.

Of course, there are some shady occasions when Jones hangs out with Bollyn, probably well aware of his background. Him and Griffin could at least make it more clear, that they support the theories, not the people behind them.

But in general, the entire movement can not be labeled anti-semitic just because many theories they support have originated from anti-semites, because many theories they support did not originate from anti-semites. This movement simply picks up theories they like. Even if we erased all the anti-semites from the history of 9/11 TM, there would still be a 9/11 TM. There are always people, who don't buy the "official explanations" and look for something different. Anti-semites may be well represented in this category, but they do not represent the entire population of people, who doubt the government.

If some regular TM guy claims the towers fell into their footprints, does he have to know that a guy called Jim McMichael first came up with this idea, which was then copied by Eric Hufschmid and Jim Hoffman, which was then adopted by Griffin after he researched for more evidence after reading the Paul Thompson timeline? Can we now claim, that because this regular TM guy had read a Griffin book and consequently claimed the towers fell into their footprints, that he must retract this claim because Jim McMichael might have been anti-semitic? This TM guy probably has no idea who this Jim McMichael guy is, heck, even Griffin probably has no clue! They subscribe to the ideas!

This is very complicated. Although many representatives of the TM fit the description, and they probably should know more about the origins, it's not all that simple folks. But I must say I think it's healthy for every member of the TM (and debunker alike) to understand, that these theories started very early, and they were mostly started by people who were very opposed to anything "official" to begin with. They used this as an opportunity to spread their world views.
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I agree with a lot of this post, but when it is pointed out that the sources for a lot of the claims are from bigotted, racist scumbags, the ordinary TM guy should admit it, say he is opposed to their views, if not their claims. Not just pretend it is not true that there were and still are anti-semites who were major players in the "movement" That is what Red is doing here. Trying to claim that Bollyn is persona non grata when he has been directly linked on this site by a truther in the last week or so. He gets so tied up in his web, he makes false claims about NIST then does not have the cahonies to back down.

While I do not thnk Red is an anti semite in the slightest, I fail to see why he can say that Silverstein was lying through his teeth without explaining why he would accuse this man of being part of the grand conspiracy with zero evidence and just the feeling he is lying. Red gives posters here who get a bit obssessed with this, the ammunition they need. It's almost like he wants it to be dragged down to that level so he can feign indignation and avoid the real issue.

You will note he is now avoiding his bombs in the basement story.
 
RedIbis said:
Did he ever verify his claims like he said he was going to?
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That makes no difference to your claim there or your claim here. They were both false claims. You were too stubborn to admit your were wrong. The worst techs I have ever worked with are those who steadfastly refuse to admit mistakes. They are dangerous. You do not even have the frailities of youth to blame for this.

When did Willie start with the bombs theory Red?

So true. You should have seen the way I picked on my little brother when we were younger. Of course that all stopped when he grew up.
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Maybe he can help you with your present problem.
 
RedIbis said:
I wouldn't expect them to do a damn thing about it since this is essentially all you've ever done from the day you started posting.
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No, they won't do anything about it because observing that someone is a liar after they've told a lie is not against the rules. You told a demonstrable lie, therefore you are a liar.

RedIbis said:
You cling to semantics because it's all you have left. Much like this tenacious grip you keep by associating any questioning of the official story with anti-semitism.
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Semantics has nothing to do with it. Words like "wrong" and "only" have specific meanings not open to interpretation, particularly in the context you used them.

RedIbis said:
Feel free to address just that.
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A laughably ironic request considering the scores of posts and questions you've left unaddressed.

But I am always happy to argue the facts with you, Red. Contrary to your implication, it is in fact you that it is near impossible to get to engage any kind of meaningful debate due to your pathological tendency to evade and flee.

And to that point, per the OP, I submit to you that 9/11 conspiracy theories have connections to anti-Semitism. I'm happy to cite sources, if you so desire. Let's see if you can come up with a more substantiative response this time than just saying "Wrong".
 
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ref said:
Well, I never saw this coming, but I am actually going to defend Gage here.

As he himself said about his mosque experience: "Worldwide and perhaps in the US as well, Muslims have born the brunt of the 9/11 "false flag" operation. They are more aware than most in America of the true nature of the deceptive controlled demolitions. We are seeking ways to empower them to empower us through their silent support."

They (ae911truth) are seeking new support from the most probable sources. They think, that muslims in general have been mistreated in the aftermath of 9/11, so there might be fertile ground to plant the 9/11 truth seed, because there might be an already supportive environment towards blaming the US government.

In my mind, they are simply (and shamefully) focusing their efforts in order to cash in more. I see nothing anti-semitic there.
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What would be disagreeing with? Gage and others are preying on an audience that's susceptible to his message. They're susceptible for all kinds of reasons. One might be the false perception that somehow all Muslims are responsible and the discrimiination that comes with that. It might be that for historical reasons, the idea that Isreal and an international Jewish conspiracy blames Muslims for bad things they never did seems reasonable to some - but certainly not all, or even many - Muslims. Kevin Barrett would be one of these, but I can give the names of others that you can meet on Facebook.

It's clear that Gage and his gang are moving off shore. There simply are no more than a couple of Americans they can recruit to their money-making 911 venture. Who else would they aim their targets at? French structural engineers? Punk rock kids in Birmingham?

The ideology of 911 Truth sprung from the suggestion that Isreal was behind it. You still get questions about this popping up here. Just because some kid in New Jersey doesn't realize why Kevin Barrett claims some hijackers are still alive doesn't mean his repeating the story makes it any less an anti-Semitic remark. It's all packaged in their and this is the only audience left for Gage for these guys.

By the way, on Facebook, the off shore Truthers regularly claim that American Truthers like Avery are Jewish shills.
 
RedIbis said:
Well since Bush is Jewish of course I believe he was in on it.
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BTW, here is Red's source for the "Bush is a jew" claim:

http://www.erichufschmid.net/TFC/Crypto-Zionists.htm

"One thing I discovered is that George W. Bush is a devoted student of the Jewish Talmud, just as were Marx, Lenin, Trotsky, and Stalin."
texemarrs.com/george_w_bush_zionist_double_agent.htm

If Texe Marrs is correct, the Bush family are Crypto Jews. There also accusations that President Eisenhower and Prime Minister Winston Churchill were, also. Many people believe that Adolf Hitler was part Jewish, as well as many of his top Nazis. The Rockefeller family is also suspected of being Crypto Jews.
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I wasn't aware you were an Eric Hufschmid fan, Red.
 
RedIbis said:
I make an obvious joke and you promote a bigot's website. Well done.
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No, it wasn't obvious. Not coming from you. You come in making numerous claims that are variously ignorant, absurd, completely without evidentiary basis or all of the above and we're supposed to be able to tell when you're not being serious?

No plane hit the pentagon, magic thermite or silent explosives brought down the towers, WTC7 wasn't on fire, fire can't hurt steel if it was, no plane crashed in Shanksville, victim phone calls were faked, Israelis spies were sent to observe the results, and on and on and on.. and oh, Bush is a jew.

There isn't any of the above statements that are less stupid and ignorant than the others.

And it wasn't me who promoted that hateful bigots website, it was you again. It is you who has spent more than four thousand posts here at JREF promoting that hateful bigots theories:

Eric Hufschmid was the first American to publish a book about 9-11 Troof, called Painful Questions, which was released in 2002. Eric might be called the godfather of the American 9-11 Truth Movement. And Eric is a Holocaust Denier.

Eric Hufschmid's work was cited by David Ray Griffin in the New Pearl Harbor, and by Sofia Shafquat and Brad Waddell in 9-11 Mysteries.
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So you come along and artfully inform us that Bush is a jew. So I googled it and within seconds found to my complete and utter lack of surprise that you are spewing bilge from from the same malignant racist that thought up most everything else you've came up with.

Why are you such a fan of anti-semitic hate-speech, Red?
 
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Yeah, I think he's got you there, Red.

Truth be told, I was pretty sure you were joking, but when you make outlandish claims without substantiation or just flat out lie when it suits you, you can't expect everyone to always tell when you're attempting humor.

Maybe in the future you could be a little clearer about which of the things you post that you didn't intend to be taken seriously, otherwise it can be hard to tell.
 
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RedIbis said:
So true. You should have seen the way I picked on my little brother when we were younger. Of course that all stopped when he grew up.
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I wouldn't doubt that your little Bro kicked your tail after you abused him when he was little.

What goes around comes around!

Red,

Do you have evidence for anything pertaining to 9/11?
 
deep said:
Uhh, did you already forget that he was joking?
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Perhaps he was lying when he said he was joking. It wouldn't be the first lie he's told in this thread. When you establish yourself as dishonest, other people tend to not take anything you say at face value.
 
deep said:
Uhh, did you already forget that he was joking?
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I'm going to respond with what Johnny Karate just said, since he said it so well:

johnny karate said:
Truth be told, I was pretty sure you were joking, but when you make outlandish claims without substantiation or just flat out lie when it suits you, you can't expect everyone to always tell when you're attempting humor.
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Sword_Of_Truth said:
I'm going to respond with what Johnny Karate just said, since he said it so well:

johnny karate said:
Truth be told, I was pretty sure you were joking, but when you make outlandish claims without substantiation or just flat out lie when it suits you, you can't expect everyone to always tell when you're attempting humor.
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Regardless of your initial interpretation, he clarified that it was a joke.


And it wasn't me who promoted that hateful bigots website, it was you again.
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You posted the link, not Red. You posted a quote from the page, not Red.

I doubt Red would even waste his time reading something like that - I certainly wouldn't.
 
deep said:
I doubt Red would even waste his time reading something like that - I certainly wouldn't.
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I dunno, Red posted Willie R's obvious lies about explosions this very morning.

And Red has visceral hatred toward Silverstein.

So I'm torn, on the one hand Red never actually makes a claim, but on the other hand, when he does come close to making a claim, you can always hear Horst Wessel-Lied playing faintly in the background, so.....
 
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