Truthers and anti-Semitism

[Sunray Breaker]

I've articulated my position on this many times. In the T-word thread I said that claiming to be a truther or calling someone a truther is equally stupid. I reject the notion there is such a thing as a Truth Movement.

Of course you would, even when there's obvious photo evidence to the contrary...That's a typical truther move
http://www.indybay.org/uploads/2009/03/23/911truth4peace.jpg

 

[WildCat]

Face it RedIbis, the entire truth movement was founded by anti-semites. Without the anti-semites there would be no truth movement. They were an essential part of it, kind of like having a fact is an essential start to that Fact Movement of yours. Have you found a fact yet?

 

[funk de fino]

I suspect this is true, you do have no idea why I would ask you for a specific quote that can be construed as anti-semitic. I've criticized LS many times. I've criticized Richard Myers and Giuliani as well, but I've been yet to be called anti-Italian or anti-Caucasian. Now why is that?

Another derail completed and a also another attempt fee from admitting a false claim. How childishly pathetic.

 

[Par]

I've criticized LS many times.

No. Making groundless nonsense accusations is not criticism.

I've criticized Richard Myers and Giuliani as well...

Perhaps you've made equally stupid false accusations against them, too, but I don't know.

...but I've been yet to be called anti-Italian or anti-Caucasian. Now why is that?

For the same reason caricaturing a white man as an ape wouldn’t be racist, but doing the same to a black man probably would, I imagine.

 

[funk de fino]

While we're arguing semantics it is not wrong since both of those institutions would have been able to end all conspiracy theories by producing thorough investigations backed by evidence. They both failed and have done more to substantiate conspiracy theories than any half rate bigotry promoted nowhere but on this website.

And thats another lie.

 

[funk de fino]

There is a poster from the 911TM side of the fence posting about "dual citizen traitors who have covered up 911"

Doesn't get any more clear cut than that.

When did Willie start claiming bombs Red?

 

[johnny karate]

While we're arguing semantics it is not wrong since both of those institutions would have been able to end all conspiracy theories by producing thorough investigations backed by evidence. They both failed and have done more to substantiate conspiracy theories than any half rate bigotry promoted nowhere but on this website.

There is no semantic argument to be made here.

You simply told a lie.

My original claim:

Because JREF has a specific sub-forum dealing with 9/11 conspiracy theories, and the examples you cited each have played some kind of role in promulgating those conspiracy theories.

The lie you offered in response:

Wrong. NIST and the The Commission played the only role in promulgating conspiracy theories since their "investigations" begged more questions than they answered.

So what was I wrong about Red?

Do you deny notorious anti-Semites Eric Hufschmid, Chris Bollyn, and the American Free Press each played roles in promulgating 9/11 conspiracy theories?

Do you continue to stand by your claim that NIST and the 9/11 Commission played the only role (if any) in promulgating such theories?

Both your statements you made are demonstrably false, and you have refused to back down from them.

This makes you a liar.

(If you anyone way feel I have unfairly maligned you, I encourage you to report this post, and all future posts in which I will link to your lies and refer to you as a liar, for moderation. I will be satisfied with whatever decision the moderators make.)

 

[beachnut]

I think there are just a lot of Jew haters in general. Isn't that what all the suffering has been about for ages now? 9/11 is an oportunity for them. It doesn't mean just because someone like me has questions about 9/11 that I'm in the same ranks as them or that they are what got me questioning it in the first place.

Think of it this way. Some KKK are Republicans. So what?

Yes you hit it. The neoNAZI dolts gravitate to the dirt dumb delusions of 911TruthLIES. They lack knowledge and their logical thinking is damaged by their hate and stupidity. Those who lack knowledge gravitate to the moronic ideas of 911TruthLIES; why not the biased in the closet bigots who think 9/11 was an opportunity for Jews.

Wrong. NIST and the The Commission played the only role in promulgating conspiracy theories since their "investigations" begged more questions than they answered.

Wrong. Those who lack knowledge and can't understand the events, like 911TruthLIES, are the only people who propagate the dire dumb delusions made up out of ignorance.
The only people begging more questions are due to their own ignorance.

 

[CHF]

I've articulated my position on this many times. In the T-word thread I said that claiming to be a truther or calling someone a truther is equally stupid. I reject the notion there is such a thing as a Truth Movement.

This, ladies and gents, is how embarrassed truthers are of themselves.

But I suppose that's one way to deal with the issue of anti-Semitism in the truth movement: deny there even is a truth movement!

Cuz if there's no such thing as the TM then how can there be any anti-Semites in it?

Why that's brillaint! Brilliant I tell you!

 

[dudalb]

Face it RedIbis, the entire truth movement was founded by anti-semites. Without the anti-semites there would be no truth movement. They were an essential part of it, kind of like having a fact is an essential start to that Fact Movement of yours. Have you found a fact yet?

The origins of the Truth Movement are murky enough that I would not claim that it was founded by Anti Semites, but it is clear from early on that Anti Semities found welcome and a home in the Truth Movement, and have always had a huge presence in the movement. Which is one reason why although reason and common sense indicate the various Truth Movement "Leaders" should try to seperate themselves from the Anti Semites, they make no real effort to do so beyond denying the Truth Movement is Anti Semitic. Not good enough by a long shot, guys.

 

[RedIbis]

(If you anyone way feel I have unfairly maligned you, I encourage you to report this post, and all future posts in which I will link to your lies and refer to you as a liar, for moderation. I will be satisfied with whatever decision the moderators make.)

I wouldn't expect them to do a damn thing about it since this is essentially all you've ever done from the day you started posting.

You cling to semantics because it's all you have left. Much like this tenacious grip you keep by associating any questioning of the official story with anti-semitism.

Feel free to address just that.

 

[TheBigKahuna]

You cling to semantics because it's all you have left. Much like this tenacious grip you keep by associating any questioning of the official story with anti-semitism.

Feel free to address just that.

Here's a reason why (from Facebook 9/11 truth movement group):

-The Un-Debunkable Truth about 9/11.

***************ZIONISM (AKA) 9/11 MASTERMINDS***************

The best info on zionisms history and 9/11.
http://apfn.org/apfn/WTC_STF.htm

911 MISSING LINKS: Goes where no other 911 documentary dares.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7877765982288566190# (2 Hours)

MOSSAD: Proof that ISRAEL was involved on 9/11.
http://theinfounderground.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5367

Mossad Truck Bombs on Sept 11
http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&hl=en-GB&v=3aKj6uJ5Mt4 (8 Mins)

Israeli 911 terrorism ties!! FOX news report now CLASSIFIED
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7T4DhDLPrY&mode= (Part 1 - 9 Mins)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSEbgrmKtmA&mode= (Part 2 - 5 Mins)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nE9crBylehs&mode= (Part 3 - 5 Mins)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omoyOGid7cA&mode= (Part 4 - 4 Mins)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=4OjTX2rYXzg (Part 5 - 4 Mins)

5 Dancing Mossad agents:
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/fiveisraelis.html

Israel: 5 Israeli's arrested on 9/11, what the media didnt tell you!
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/fiveisraelis.html
http://911research.wtc7.net/sept11/israelispys.html

"We were there to Document the event":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRfhUezbKLw (3 Mins)

Airports: All 9/11 Airport security Serviced by One Israeli Owned Company!
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/ICTS.html

Zionist control in American Media, you should start from chapter 1!
http://www.the7thfire.com/9-11/Past...ter_7--Zionist_power_structure_in_America.htm

Zionists: Jews are against the Zionists, protests in Israel
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/jews_against_zionism.html

Zionists: Ariel Sharon says Israel Controls the US
http://www.rense.com/general45/sharonsinfamouscomment.htm

Eric Hufschmid on Zionism:
http://www.erichufschmid.net/TFC/zionism.html

The History of Israel and Britain and the USA:
http://www.erichufschmid.net/HistoryOfIsraelAndTheUSA.html

9/11 For Reality Deniers: Well sourced info!
http://takeourworldback.com/911realitydeniers.htm

Understanding the history of Anti-Semitism, the how and why it's used.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7058222283109754341#

 

[9/11 Chewy Defense]

RedIbis loves to pick on the Jewish people.

If that's not anti-semitism then he's lost his mind.

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Well since Bush is Jewish of course I believe he was in on it.

Not surprised at all to hear this from Redibis.

 

[ref]

The origins of the Truth Movement are murky enough that I would not claim that it was founded by Anti Semites, but it is clear from early on that Anti Semities found welcome and a home in the Truth Movement, and have always had a huge presence in the movement. Which is one reason why although reason and common sense indicate the various Truth Movement "Leaders" should try to seperate themselves from the Anti Semites, they make no real effort to do so beyond denying the Truth Movement is Anti Semitic. Not good enough by a long shot, guys.

You are on the right track here. There wasn't any plan to start a "truth movement" by any group of people. Many of those who first came up with popular truther theories were anti-semitic. But a fact is, that all of them were not.

For example, Jared Israel came up with the NORAD stand down theory, which is still largely supported by almost every member of the TM. But Jared Israel is a strong supporter of Israel and an avid opposer of any anti-semitic conspiracy theories.

Griffin supports Jared Israel's NORAD stand down theories. Does this mean now, that Griffin is not anti-semitic after all? Of course not, neither does him quoting Bollyn make him anti-semitic.

People here have to understand that these TM leaders want these theories, regardless of the people who came up with them. In many (or most) occasions they may not even know who first came up with these ideas. They just know that this or that theory fits their world view, and they adopt that theory.

Of course, there are some shady occasions when Jones hangs out with Bollyn, probably well aware of his background. Him and Griffin could at least make it more clear, that they support the theories, not the people behind them.

But in general, the entire movement can not be labeled anti-semitic just because many theories they support have originated from anti-semites, because many theories they support did not originate from anti-semites. This movement simply picks up theories they like. Even if we erased all the anti-semites from the history of 9/11 TM, there would still be a 9/11 TM. There are always people, who don't buy the "official explanations" and look for something different. Anti-semites may be well represented in this category, but they do not represent the entire population of people, who doubt the government.

If some regular TM guy claims the towers fell into their footprints, does he have to know that a guy called Jim McMichael first came up with this idea, which was then copied by Eric Hufschmid and Jim Hoffman, which was then adopted by Griffin after he researched for more evidence after reading the Paul Thompson timeline? Can we now claim, that because this regular TM guy had read a Griffin book and consequently claimed the towers fell into their footprints, that he must retract this claim because Jim McMichael might have been anti-semitic? This TM guy probably has no idea who this Jim McMichael guy is, heck, even Griffin probably has no clue! They subscribe to the ideas!

This is very complicated. Although many representatives of the TM fit the description, and they probably should know more about the origins, it's not all that simple folks. But I must say I think it's healthy for every member of the TM (and debunker alike) to understand, that these theories started very early, and they were mostly started by people who were very opposed to anything "official" to begin with. They used this as an opportunity to spread their world views.

 

[Scott Sommers]

You are on the right track here. There wasn't any plan to start a "truth movement" by any group of people. Many of those who first came up with popular truther theories were anti-semitic. But a fact is, that all of them were not.

For example, Jared Israel came up with the NORAD stand down theory, which is still largely supported by almost every member of the TM. But Jared Israel is a strong supporter of Israel and an avid opposer of any anti-semitic conspiracy theories.

Griffin supports Jared Israel's NORAD stand down theories. Does this mean now, that Griffin is not anti-semitic after all? Of course not, neither does him quoting Bollyn make him anti-semitic.

People here have to understand that these TM leaders want these theories, regardless of the people who came up with them. In many (or most) occasions they may not even know who first came up with these ideas. They just know that this or that theory fits their world view, and they adopt that theory.

Of course, there are some shady occasions when Jones hangs out with Bollyn, probably well aware of his background. Him and Griffin could at least make it more clear, that they support the theories, not the people behind them.

But in general, the entire movement can not be labeled anti-semitic just because many theories they support have originated from anti-semites, because many theories they support did not originate from anti-semites. This movement simply picks up theories they like. Even if we erased all the anti-semites from the history of 9/11 TM, there would still be a 9/11 TM. There are always people, who don't buy the "official explanations" and look for something different. Anti-semites may be well represented in this category, but they do not represent the entire population of people, who doubt the government.

If some regular TM guy claims the towers fell into their footprints, does he have to know that a guy called Jim McMichael first came up with this idea, which was then copied by Eric Hufschmid and Jim Hoffman, which was then adopted by Griffin after he researched for more evidence after reading the Paul Thompson timeline? Can we now claim, that because this regular TM guy had read a Griffin book and consequently claimed the towers fell into their footprints, that he must retract this claim because Jim McMichael might have been anti-semitic? This TM guy probably has no idea who this Jim McMichael guy is, heck, even Griffin probably has no clue! They subscribe to the ideas!

This is very complicated. Although many representatives of the TM fit the description, and they probably should know more about the origins, it's not all that simple folks. But I must say I think it's healthy for every member of the TM (and debunker alike) to understand, that these theories started very early, and they were mostly started by people who were very opposed to anything "official" to begin with. They used this as an opportunity to spread their world views.

I don't think anyone doubts the logic of your post. The problem is larger than this, though. I you track the activity of 911 Truth groups over the last while, there's a disturbing pattern. Truth groups are increasingly having trouble attracting new membership among mainstream Americans. It is increasingly the case that to deal with this problem, Truth groups composed of mainstream Americans appear to be building bridges into anti-Semitic groups. Gage's recent speaking engagement at a mosque would be part of this. So would the growing number of Facebook groups composed of members who state they live in primarily Muslim nations. Public anti-Semites, like Kevin Barrett, are busy trying to build Internet support from more mainstream proponents of 911 Truth.

Of course it's moving in that direction. After Obama got elected and the 911 Democrats jumped ship, the hard-core membership of 911 has moved increasingly toward the Right. While you can hardly blame some high school kid for quoting a 911 theorist who is also a Nazi, the ideology that 911 Truth grows around now was designed to make space for anti-Semitic beliefs. There's nobody left to recruit in North America. 911 Truth has only limited appeal in Europe and almost none in NE Asia. There's only one direction for it to go if these guys still want members.

I've always wondered why Gage doesn't speak in Afghanistan. I'm sure the Taliban would find some opium money for him somewhere. He could be their national hero if he was willing to give up women and booze.

 

[ref]

It is increasingly the case that to deal with this problem, Truth groups composed of mainstream Americans appear to be building bridges into anti-Semitic groups. Gage's recent speaking engagement at a mosque would be part of this. So would the growing number of Facebook groups composed of members who state they live in primarily Muslim nations.

Well, I never saw this coming, but I am actually going to defend Gage here.

As he himself said about his mosque experience: "Worldwide and perhaps in the US as well, Muslims have born the brunt of the 9/11 "false flag" operation. They are more aware than most in America of the true nature of the deceptive controlled demolitions. We are seeking ways to empower them to empower us through their silent support."

They (ae911truth) are seeking new support from the most probable sources. They think, that muslims in general have been mistreated in the aftermath of 9/11, so there might be fertile ground to plant the 9/11 truth seed, because there might be an already supportive environment towards blaming the US government.

In my mind, they are simply (and shamefully) focusing their efforts in order to cash in more. I see nothing anti-semitic there.

 

[NutCracker]

What the hell is "standard truther lore"? and where has a Twoofilious Twoofer such as myself ever referenced these sources?

Twoofies don't reference sources, they parrot them.

Thank you.

 

[funk de fino]

I wouldn't expect them to do a damn thing about it since this is essentially all you've ever done from the day you started posting.

You cling to semantics because it's all you have left. Much like this tenacious grip you keep by associating any questioning of the official story with anti-semitism.

Feel free to address just that.

The irony is unbelievable after your treatment of Triforcharity.

It's not semantics. You made a completely false claim and are too childish to back down.

 

[RedIbis]

RedIbis loves to pick on the Jewish people.

If that's not anti-semitism then he's lost his mind.

So true. You should have seen the way I picked on my little brother when we were younger. Of course that all stopped when he grew up.