Truther responses to Millette WTC Dust paper

[fourtoe]

Now, aneta.org is the stillborn "Association for Nine Eleven Truth Activists" by Rick Shaddock aka "Cicorp" aka "TruthMakesPeace" (I think), who is its "Executive Director" (read: lone guy in basement). So I am not sure if this fundraiser is current and THE Mark Basile fundraiser.

Isn't TruthMakesPeace one of the guys that helped Chris Mohr get together with Millette lab?

 

[Oystein]

Isn't TruthMakesPeace one of the guys that helped Chris Mohr get together with Millette lab?

Hmmm rings a bell
<-- *scratches head*
I made myself a private list of persons in the 9/11 debate with nicknames, real names, where they are from and who they are affiliated with. I plugged in both nicknames for Rick Shaddock. I am certain that he is cicorp, but don't remember why I thought he is also TMP

On the other hand, if Rick is helping Basile to get together with a lab, why not do the same for Chris?

 

[cjnewson88]

$5000? Millette only cost a fifth of that..

 

[TruthersLie]

Hmmm rings a bell
<-- *scratches head*
I made myself a private list of persons in the 9/11 debate with nicknames, real names, where they are from and who they are affiliated with. I plugged in both nicknames for Rick Shaddock. I am certain that he is cicorp, but don't remember why I thought he is also TMP

On the other hand, if Rick is helping Basile to get together with a lab, why not do the same for Chris?

He is both Cicorp and truthmakespeace. He came on and registered as Cicorp... which was the name of his company which had "contracts with the government." After a while he realized (or had it pointed out to him) how incredibly stupid it was to be posting on any forum the truth wackiness which would then be affiliated with that company and so he changed his username to truthmakespeace

 

[Oystein]

$5000? Millette only cost a fifth of that..

Right, but he is giving us a >$1000 value. It's like a little extra cash, but mostly he is doing the work for his own publication.

To put this into perspective: If you want my professional sevice as a consultant (project manager), I'll try to charge you 720 Euro/day, that's about $900 at current rates. For $1000, you'll get me for a day and and another hour. Millette should value his time higher than I do mine, AND he has expensive technical equipment that should go into the charge. He has certainly put a lot more than 1 day into this project

 

[cjnewson88]

Thing is based on ae911 fund raisers going pretty well into the pocket of Gage, I'm a little suspect of pitching in on a truther fund raiser of which some could just go into some truthers pocket. Have they decided who they're going to send these 'blind' samples off to yet? Are they going to perform the same test Millette did or just throw them in a DSC and burn them again?

 

[Oystein]

I have no idea.

They should do what Chris Mohr initially wanted to do:


Give them a sample and ask "Is there any thermite in there?" (and one might add: "if yes, how much?").

Or, if you really want to go blind: "Tell me all the chemical compounds in these chips, separately per chip, and their relative amounts!" (and perhaps add: "Can you identify what material it is and how it might be used?")


And NOT tell them which methods to use. Let the lab decide which methods are competent to answer the question that is asked.

 

[Justin39640]

Right, but he is giving us a >$1000 value. It's like a little extra cash, but mostly he is doing the work for his own publication.

To put this into perspective: If you want my professional sevice as a consultant (project manager), I'll try to charge you 720 Euro/day, that's about $900 at current rates. For $1000, you'll get me for a day and and another hour. Millette should value his time higher than I do mine, AND he has expensive technical equipment that should go into the charge. He has certainly put a lot more than 1 day into this project

Seriously. I was shocked to see how cheap it was. The publication has to be worth a lot though. I charge close to you. You need me to fix your machine all day, it's about $800 - 1000 labor plus parts . I once did a $15,000 brake job lol.

 

[Jono]

And NOT tell them which methods to use. Let the lab decide which methods are competent to answer the question that is asked.

Exactemundo.

 

[chrismohr]

I have no idea.

They should do what Chris Mohr initially wanted to do:


Give them a sample and ask "Is there any thermite in there?" (and one might add: "if yes, how much?").

Or, if you really want to go blind: "Tell me all the chemical compounds in these chips, separately per chip, and their relative amounts!" (and perhaps add: "Can you identify what material it is and how it might be used?")


And NOT tell them which methods to use. Let the lab decide which methods are competent to answer the question that is asked.

Hi all, Rick Shaddock talked with me about possibly organizing a blind study of the red-gray chips. He also talked with Mark Basile about it. I suggested through Rick that Mark consider finding a lab we all could agree had credibility IN ADVANCE, and apparently both Mark and Rick liked the idea. I haven't heard more tho, and that was a couple months ago.

BTW Rick is indeed working hard with me on the chrismohr911 site, collecting re-rebuttals from Chris Sarns, Adam Taylor and others. Adam is about to release a paper responding to my YouTube videos and will be filling in the boxes with his responses. I am working with several JREFers to put in re-re-rebuttals. That's what I know.

 

[Miragememories]

"If you want to challenge the Bentham Paper, you either prove they faked their results, or you prove they misinterpreted them.

A good place to start, unlike Dr. Millett'e bogus duplicate study, would be the use of identical Bentham test methodology on some 'proven' LaClede paint samples of similar age and size.

Unless every WTC-era building that used LaClede steel primer paint has mysteriously collapsed, there should be incredible amounts of this stuff on existing steel, and only a scraping away.

And before it is suggested that I do this, it is not my hypothesis that the red chips are LaClede steel primer paint."

"Whoops, there goes that goal post!

here, let me help you move it back:"

"This [see the quote below] is why I know AE911 Truth is "quite willing to concede" the logical presence of steel primer paint in the WTC dust.

That would include ALL steel primer paint formulations used in the WTC, including LaClede steel primer paint.

http://ae911truth.org/downloads/documents/primer_paint_Niels_Harrit.pdf"

"In one experiment the chips were to be soaked in methyl ethyl ketone (MEK) and could
not – for good reasons – be broken before. The resulting XEDS of this chip (Figure 6, below) displays tiny blips indicating the presence of chromium and zinc. They disappeared after the chips had been soaked/rinsed with the organic solvent. Therefore, they are believed to derive from surface contamination, which very well could have been from the primer paint(!)."

"To which Josarhus replied:"

"Harrits will not discuss Millette's paper in public, because it hasn’t been published jet. But through one of Harrits truther friends I have been able to establish that Harrits consider only one paint being used on WTC steel.

Harrits truther friend tells me that Harrit will not consider other paints since he cannot get hold of a sample of other paints.

I told Harrits truther friend that both paints are described in the NIST report and he responded:"

Pure unsourced hearsay and taken out of context.

"...In short,
MM: "Harrit is willing to concede and consider LaClede"
Harrit: "I am not yet willing to concede and consider LaClede"

[Oystein uses improvised quotes, without proper context, which makes them lies]

There is a discrepancy. Do you see that?..."

Do you understand what contamination means?

Do you understand what the contamination would be comprised of?

Dr. Harrit acknowledges the existence of contamination and accepts that contamination can represent any material that existed within the WTC at the time of collapse.

It is implicit in his statement, that any primer paints used in the WTC, whether known to him personally or not, could very well exist in the uncleaned surface contamination of the red chips.

What he rejects, is your untested belief that primer paint, Tnemec, LaClede or otherwise, was observable in the 'cleaned red chips' he tested.

MM

 

[Oystein]

...
What he rejects refuses to consider handwaves, is your untested belief proven fact that primer paint, Tnemec, LaClede or otherwise, was observableed in the 'cleaned red chips' he tested.

MM

Corrected that for you.


You have again moved goal posts. Asking what the chips ARE is step 2. Harrit failed already in step 1: Recognizing that, when you do consider paint, Tnemec is not the only candidate, and that you also have to consider LaClede, or unknown other, paints.

 

[Oystein]

On a German board (gulli.de - that's sort of an online magazine with a big forum for all sorts of topics; basically one big "NWO" thread with over 14,000 posts that's mostly 9/11-related) Dirk Gerhardt aka Sitting Bull and another truther have been pushing the assertion that elemental aluminium, reacts strongly with water, in a reaction 2 Al + 3 H2O -> Al₂O₃ + 3 H₂ (+ heat), and that this may have happened when Millette washed the chips, and, after ashing, suspended the released pigments, in clean water, thereby turning elemental Al into oxide. Dirk's sidekick presented me with some data sheet on "phlegmatized" Al powder, which stated that the powder must be kept away from water as it might react vigorously and present an explosive hazard. This had me fooled for a day: I thought "phlegmatize" was basically the same as "passivated", which is "cover the metal with a thin layer of oxide so it can't oxidize any further on air".

I forgot to research the actual meaning of the word. Wikipedia told me:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phlegmatized
It actually means that some reactive substance is protected right after, or even during, protection by covering it, or immersing it, in some material that keeps oxygen away, so it won't react. In the case of Al powder, linseed oil is often used; it very much slows down the passivation of the top layer of aluminium.

So Dirk was certainly wrong: After 8 years, even a phlegmatized Al-particle would have been passivated.

(He is further wrong because Millette found Al-silicate, not oxide, after washing. Silicate could npt form from the contact of elemental Al with water)

 

[OCaptain]

I must say that thread title was entirely appropriate.. What is it with truthers and their need to release multiple versions of the 'truth'?

So, when are we expecting this 'new study' and how should we expect it to be any different to his last?

Unless he's going to recant, and he's choosing a very bizarre way to do it?

 

[Miragememories]

Corrected that for you.


You have again moved goal posts. Asking what the chips ARE is step 2. Harrit failed already in step 1: Recognizing that, when you do consider paint, Tnemec is not the only candidate, and that you also have to consider LaClede, or unknown other, paints.

When considering the contents of the red chip surface contamination, all the materials that previously existed in the WTC are open to consideration.

When considering the content of the 'cleaned' red chips, testing has shown that
primer paint is not a valid consideration.

MM

 

[thedopefishlives]

When considering the contents of the red chip surface contamination, all the materials that previously existed in the WTC are open to consideration.

When considering the content of the 'cleaned' red chips, testing has shown that
primer paint is not a valid consideration.

MM

No, it has not. Harrit's own results themselves completely disprove the thermite hypothesis, by the DSC energy release alone. There is no reason to disregard them as being paint chips, because no further characterization was done to either prove or disprove them as such. It is still a valid hypothesis until Harrit, Farrer, and Jones release the data from the more detailed tests they claimed they did.

 

[Dave Rogers]

When considering the content of the 'cleaned' red chips, testing has shown that
primer paint is not a valid consideration.

ITYM "testing has shown that one specific formulation of primer paint is not a valid consideration." There are many different kinds of paint, some of which are not soluble in MEK, as several of my old shirts bear witness.

Dave

 

[Miragememories]

ITYM "testing has shown that one specific formulation of primer paint is not a valid consideration." There are many different kinds of paint, some of which are not soluble in MEK, as several of my old shirts bear witness.

Dave

Do your old shirts leave iron-rich microspheres in their residue when ignited?

Does any primer paint to your knowledge?

MM

 

[thedopefishlives]

Do your old shirts leave iron-rich microspheres in their residue when ignited?

Does any primer paint to your knowledge?

MM

How about, "Primer paint that is still bonded to a microscopic layer of the steel to which it was applied?" Does that count?

 

[Dave Rogers]

Do your old shirts leave iron-rich microspheres in their residue when ignited?

Quite possibly, given some of the stuff that gets soaked into them. They're a pretty common product of combustion.

Does any primer paint to your knowledge?

Any primer paint that contains iron oxide as a pigment will leave iron-rich microspheres in its residue when ignited.

Dave