Trussbolt failiures and flame cutters

The test to which you are referring estimates the maximum temperature reached by the decomposition of paint on the steel. At about 250 degrees, the paint burns off. So that particular test isn't of much use in the hottest part of the fire. However, knowing the cooler temperatures around the perimeter of the fire can help by allowing you to calibrate a model of the fire.
NIST estimated temperatures around 1000 degrees C near the ceilings, which is where the trusses were.

The columns themselves would not need to lose strength from heating. They failed by being pulled "out of column" by the attached trusses sagging.

An observation: this is elderly, elderly question material you're working with here. Why do questions seem to propagate so quickly through Twoofer-space, while the supplied answers seem hardly to travel at all?

NIST doesn't say how long these 1000C fires were burning. And this is the air temp that would occur in only brief, flashover moments, not the steel temp.

Regardless, NIST's estimation of the air temp far exceeds previous analyses.

And my observation is that these questions might be asked because the answers given have not been sufficient.
 
load of the building. It shares the duty with the perimeter columns. If either fail, the whole system fails - catastrophically. QUOTE]


Source?

I might be new to jref, but I'm not new to objective debate based upon evidence.

Part of it is engineering common sense. If you look at the structure, the core and perimeter are both important structural elements. The perimeter is not just a cosmetic enhancement.

The rest is explained very well here:

 
That's it? I expected something more than that.

Are you doubting the veracity of the NIST statement?
Your statement makes no sense and has no bearing on what happen to the WTC. You have cherry picked some statement and you have no conclusion. What does it mean? You have failed to comprehend the work of NIST and what they were doing. If you doubt the WTC towers failed due to impact, fire and gravity collapse, you have failed to find the many studies confirming that. Studies that are independent of NIST. Who needs NIST to understand why the WTC fell? Why have you cherry picked some old junk from the truth movement, and what your conclusion? Drop the NIST stuff and tell me why impact, fire, and gravity collapse are not possible. Since it happen on 9/11 you will have to present the facts to disprove what happen on 9/11.
 
load of the building. It shares the duty with the perimeter columns. If either fail, the whole system fails - catastrophically. QUOTE]


Source?

I might be new to jref, but I'm not new to objective debate based upon evidence.
Without the core the WTC falls, without the shell the WTC falls. The WTC was built as a system, his statement can be verified, why not try to prove it wrong presenting your facts.
 
Assumption.

Yes it is an assumption, but it is based on credible analysis. The load bearing for gravitational loads was split pretty evenly between the perimeter columns and the core columns. The NIST report has plenty of information on this, including the DCRs for the columns. It is fairly simple to determine, based on the average DCRs, that removing either the core columns or the perimeter columns would result in collapse.
 
Since this is my first day here, I'll expect a jref beating for throwing this out there.

NIST reported that no core column had evidence of reaching a temp exceeding 250C.

With or without fireproofing, the cores seemed never to have heated sufficiently for "global failure."

Commence rhetorical beatdown, firguratively speaking, of course.

Well, what portion of core column samples were testable for paint cracking, and what does that data mean in context?

NIST NCSTAR 1-3 said:
Four of the core columns with known as-built locations were examined for mud cracking of the paint. For columns C-88a and C-88b, sufficient paint for analysis was not available. For columns HH and C-80, few areas of paint were observed (three to five spots per column) with no indication of temperatures over 250C. Note that these columns represent less than 1 percent of the core columns on floors involved with fire and cannot be considered representative of any other core columns.

A mighty small sample; trying to generalize to conditions throughout the core structure just isn't gonna work.

Now, if you refer to Table 5-2 on p. 35 (83 in the .pdf) of NCSTAR 1-3, we can find out what the as-built locations of the two column samples that had spots of paint. It turns out that both of these samples came from WTC1; C-80 was column 603 and came from between floors 92 and 95, and HH was column 605 and came from between floors 98 and 100.

Next, we want to move on to NCSTAR 1-5. Figure E-3 on page xlvii (.pdf 49) shows the locations of those two columns in the core. They're on the side towards the airplane impact, the second row from the outside of the core, basically to either side of the area where the plane damaged the floor slab on floor 96. Now that we know where to find them in diagrams of each floor, we can move on to the color-coded plots of the predicted thermal response of the structure on each floor, found on pp. 144-157 (pdf 198-211) of NCSTAR 1-5.

The only place that I can see where the fire dynamics and fire-structure interface models predicted any temperatures significantly above 250C for either of those two columns is in the area of the 94th and 95th floors for the Case A simulations. In the Case B simulations they didn't get that hot. Since we don't know what the floor locations were for the remaining spots of paint on the two samples, we can't say that the examination of the samples contradicts the results of the fire simulations.

In fact, in general these two samples support the results of the FDS and FSI simulations. If the modeling had predicted high temperatures that were contradicted by the physical evidence, NIST would have had to scrutinize their models to determine what was wrong, but in the event the little temperature data available from the steel samples is pretty much in line with what the simulations predicted.

This has been a factual beatdown. The rhetorical beatdown follows:

All of this information is freely available on the Web. It's not on @#$% Youtube, but it's not like you have to drag your @#$ to the library to get it. Consider the possibility that it might be worthwhile to spend some time with the @#$% source material before coming around spouting old-hat secondhand troofer claims about it.
 
I'm simply addressing the contention that any failure to the perimeter or core would result in a global collapse.

Glanz and Lipton summarize the findings of the white paper:

The Vierendeel trusses would be so effective, according to the engineers' calculations, that all the columns on one side of a tower could be cut, as well as the two corners and several columns on the adjacent sides, and the tower would still be strong enough to withstand a 100-mile-per-hour wind.
--City in the Sky, p 133

And I didn't even have to go to the library to find this.
 
Last edited:
I'm simply addressing the contention that any failure to the perimeter or core would result in a global collapse.

Glanz and Lipton summarize the findings of the white paper:

The Vierendeel trusses would be so effective, according to the engineers' calculations, that all the columns on one side of a tower could be cut, as well as the two corners and several columns on the adjacent sides, and the tower would still be strong enough to withstand a 100-mile-per-hour wind.
--City in the Sky, p 133

And I didn't even have to go to the library to find this.

The original claim was that

beachnut said:
Without the core the WTC falls, without the shell the WTC falls. The WTC was built as a system, his statement can be verified, why not try to prove it wrong presenting your facts.

You countered with

RedIbis said:
Assumption.

The quote from City in the Sky from your post does not address this, it addresses a partial failure of the perimeter.
 
The literature reports that relevant experts, civil engineers and metallurgists were at the points were the beams were delivered to and they culled out every piece that they thought was needed for the analysis.
Just to back this up, the program @ Discovery Canada (now called Daily Planet) on the Discovery Channel (Canadian version) had a report a few months after 9/11 following one of the engineers who was examining and marking which pieces of steel he wanted retained for further analysis.
 
I'm simply addressing the contention that any failure to the perimeter or core would result in a global collapse.

Glanz and Lipton summarize the findings of the white paper:

The Vierendeel trusses would be so effective, according to the engineers' calculations, that all the columns on one side of a tower could be cut, as well as the two corners and several columns on the adjacent sides, and the tower would still be strong enough to withstand a 100-mile-per-hour wind.
--City in the Sky, p 133

And I didn't even have to go to the library to find this.

That statement does not take into account any fires nor loss of fireproofing. The towers would have stood without the fires. They withstood the impacts.
 
That statement does not take into account any fires nor loss of fireproofing. The towers would have stood without the fires. They withstood the impacts.

Correct. But the fires never got hot enough to weaken the steel. So now we have analysis which states the towers could withstand significant column damage, even greater than experienced on 9/11, even against massive shear force.

That leaves the fires. It is a huge assumption that fireproofing was dislodged from the entirety of the floor or floors. There's also no evidence that the plane was responsible for this dislodging. But it's all moot.

With or without fireproofing, there is no evidence that the fires heated the steel sufficiently.

The S tower is down in 52 mins. That's not a lot of time to weaken the steel.
 
A few pics here aswell:

http://www.debunking911.com/thermite.htm

I was thinking especially of this:

cut.jpg

/S
 
Last edited:
Correct. But the fires never got hot enough to weaken the steel.
I assume you mean the steel of the core columns (reading your previous posts). Suffice it to say, both statements are incorrect.

Heat changes some basic material properties of metal. Most importantly, it changes the modulus of elasticity, defined as the slope on the linear region of a stress-strain curve. Specifically, the modulus of elasticity lowers with ANY increase in heat. As the modulus of elasticity decreases the capacity for accelerated creep, as well as heat induced strain increases.

NCSTAR 1-6, appendix D (starting at page 320) provides a detailed explanation of the load cycling occurring in the towers. The pull in forces created by the sagging of the floor trusses (whose steel did exceed 250 C) caused positive moment buckling for both the perimeter and core columns. Due to the heat present in the system, NIST modeled inelastic buckling as modified by increased creep strain.

My point is that "weakening" is an overly simplified term. As the steel heats to temperatures that far exceed the office environment, plastic creep strain, induced thermal stress and inward buckling will remove the load capacity of the column without necessarily altering the compressive strength of the steel.

If you read NCSTAR 1-6, page 243, you will find that NIST reports values of 500 to 700 degrees centigrade in the core of the towers.
So now we have analysis which states the towers could withstand significant column damage, even greater than experienced on 9/11, even against massive shear force.
But without the buckling of the columns. Your report says that the columns were severed, not plastically deformed, subjected to differential thermal stresses, and then underwent plastic buckling.
That leaves the fires. It is a huge assumption that fireproofing was dislodged from the entirety of the floor or floors.
Actually, it is the inevitable conclusion of a series of complex, iterative calculations. The fireproofing dislodged in the NIST model was actually conservative as it only included the areas that were in the direct path of the debris. For the summary, you would want to read page 332 of 1-6. For the detailed analysis of the fireproofing calculations, you want pages 33 to 35, and chapter 5. I would suggest starting at page 129, though the entire chapter contains necessary information.

To summarize, NIST had several criteria for inferring the dislodgement of the fire protection.
There's also no evidence that the plane was responsible for this dislodging. But it's all moot.
No, it's not moot simply because your misconceptions have led you to illogical conclusions. There is ample evidence for dislodgement, not the least of which involves the analysis of damage caused by hundreds of thousands of pounds of material slamming into the WTC towers. With the adhesive strength of the SFRM below 12 psi, you would expect that red-hot shrapnel, traveling at 500 mph would cause some damage, right?
With or without fireproofing, there is no evidence that the fires heated the steel sufficiently.
That would only be true if one was incapable of solving a series of mathematical equations. It turns out, however, that as the fires burned, the steel changed shape and underwent plastic deformations and buckling. This would not have happened without heat induced changes.
The S tower is down in 52 mins. That's not a lot of time to weaken the steel.

I do not care about your opinion.
 
If you read NCSTAR 1-6, page 243, you will find that NIST reports values of 500 to 700 degrees centigrade in the core of the towers.

For only a 10 to 20 minute interval, NIST reports the core temp cooled from 600-100C (NIST NCSTAR 1-5, pp 112-117 temp charts).

Granted, significant heating of the structural steel occured, but "global collapse" relies on the idea that this happened comprehensively, simultaneously, and without any asymetrical deviation.

And this happened the same way twice. Please excuse my skepticism.
 
For only a 10 to 20 minute interval, NIST reports the core temp cooled from 600-100C (NIST NCSTAR 1-5, pp 112-117 temp charts).
And yet, your original claim was that the fires "never got hot enough to weaken the steel." Thankfully, that statement has been shown to be in error.
Granted, significant heating of the structural steel occured, but "global collapse" relies on the idea that this happened comprehensively, simultaneously, and without any asymetrical deviation.
Really? Where does the NCSTAR state this? Rather global collapse simply relies on the idea that a sufficient number of columns failed in order to allow a gravity driven collapse to proceed. And yes, columns can fail catestrophically.

And this happened the same way twice. Please excuse my skepticism.

If your skepticism is based on a mere numerical analysis of the event, it's a poor basis for said skepticism. If I designed a reinforced concrete beam 10 feet long, 5 inches square with 0.18% reinforcing steel, and then subjected the beam to a 750 kip point load, the beam would fail. To my knowledge, a 10 foot long beam, 5 inches square with 0.18% reinforcing steel has never failed. My prediction of the failure is based on engineering analysis and a firm grasp on the material properties of the concrete and steel. Gravity will drive the collapse, and the simple fact is that without sufficient restraint, gravity will always win.

And no, the towers did not collapse in the same way. The deflections, temperatures reached and loads involved were different for each tower. While the mechanisms for collapse in each tower were similar in many ways, they were absolutely not the same.
 
And yet, your original claim was that the fires "never got hot enough to weaken the steel." Thankfully, that statement has been shown to be in error.


Core columns were never reported to have reached that temp. NIST's language is that "structural components" reached those temps for a period of about 10-20 mins.
 
That leaves the fires. It is a huge assumption that fireproofing was dislodged from the entirety of the floor or floors.
And that is an assumption that only you make.

NIST used a very conservative approach in estimating fire protection loss. They only assumed such loss where photos showed such loss (on exterior columns), and where their models showed that steel would have been directly impacted by high-speed debris.

The S tower is down in 52 mins. That's not a lot of time to weaken the steel.
[swiki]Argument from Incredulity[/swiki]: the 9/11 denier's offense and defense. It was 56 minutes, by the way.
 
...
Why do questions seem to propagate so quickly through Twoofer-space, while the supplied answers seem hardly to travel at all?

Reality can be less exciting ;)

Twoofer: "Hey ! There's an alien spaceship !!"
Sceptic: "Nah, look closer. It's the Met Life blimp shrouded in low cloud"
Twoofer: "Oh yeah, so it is. Damn !!!!"

p.s. This only works if you can actually see the picture of Snoopy driving the blimp, and the Twoofer still has 30% brain function.
p.p.s. mega-twoofers will claim that the aliens painted Snoopy on the nose of their spacecraft, as a disguise.
p.p.p.s Griffin will charge $10,000 to lecture on how the Snoopy character is a well-known inter-galactic logo, while Judy Wood will explain that rogue Met Life blimps will "dustify" large steel buildings.
 

Back
Top Bottom