Trump's Second Term

dann said:
Look, Zelensky wasn't particularly brave.
He believed that NATO, i.e. the USA and Europe had his back, but they never seriously did. So instead of giving up a couple of territories where the majority of the population would rather belong to Russia than to Ukraine, he expected the help from the powers that he thought were his allies, but they never intended to seriously get into a real war with Russia. Instead, they gave Ukraine just enough weapons to be able to let the war continue with no end in sight, much like what happened when Russia invaded Afghanistan back in the 1970s and 1980s.
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As I recall it was the USA and European countries that responded to the invasion by offering Zelensky and his government safe haven, so even if he'd expected them to "have his back" before the event he would have been quickly disabused of that notion. When he declined those offers the general expectation was that he would be dead within a couple of weeks; that's how long most commentators thought it would take for Russia to capture Kyiv, shoot him and install a puppet government. It was only when it became apparent that, amazingly, that was not going to happen that any western countries started to consider whether helping him might be the right thing to do.
 
Pixel42 said:
What I want to know is: what on earth made a coward who managed to weasel his way out of national service think he could bully the leader who stood firm in his capital city as invaders with a far superior military force marched on it, turning down multiple offers for safe haven elsewhere? Zelensky is a hundred times the man Trump is, the chances he would meekly surrender to verbal bullying were zero.
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Very well said.

I have never been in love with the Ukraine. They have a shameful, fascist past. But Zelenskyy has proven to be a fine leader. I don’t think I’m the only one who wanted him to land a punch on Trump, Vance or ideally both.
 
Pixel42 said:
As I recall it was the USA and European countries that responded to the invasion by offering Zelensky and his government safe haven, so even if he'd expected them to "have his back" before the event he would have been quickly disabused of that notion. When he declined those offers the general expectation was that he would be dead within a couple of weeks; that's how long most commentators thought it would take for Russia to capture Kyiv, shoot him and install a puppet government. It was only when it became apparent that, amazingly, that was not going to happen that any western countries started to consider whether helping him might be the right thing to do.
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Relations with Ukraine (NATO)
  • Since the NATO Summit in Warsaw in July 2016, NATO's practical support for Ukraine is set out in the Comprehensive Assistance Package (CAP) for Ukraine. At the 2022 Madrid Summit, Allies strengthened the CAP to provide even more support to Ukraine. At the 2023 Vilnius Summit, Allies agreed to further develop the CAP into a multi-year programme of assistance, to help rebuild the Ukrainian security and defence sector and transition Ukraine towards full interoperability with NATO.
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But I'm sure the practical support packages contained nothing but paper nappies and condensed milk. I mean, it's what NATO is known for, right?!
 
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Aridas said:
That... sounds like an interesting spin to create a narrative that suits you. To keep things simple, it leaves out things of relevance and evaluates Zelensky and what he actually believes in ways not well reflected by the evidence at hand. That's not to say that it's totally wrong, of course, but there's good reason for why it's said that the best lies contain a grain of truth.
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The narrative spun by NATO and previous U.S. administrations seems to suit you just fine. The very bestest lies.
 
Susheel said:
There's definitely compromat on Lindsey...perhaps photographs/videos of some dalliance with rentboys (or whatever America variation of those)?
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Not unlikely, but I think it's even more likely that people employed by or allied with Trump have stuff like that.
The National Enquirer may even have bought and killed the stories - with or without photos.
 
lionking said:
The question is why the surviving ex-presidents are silent.

Yes, I know it’s not conventional, but Trump has thrown conventions in the garbage bin.

Show some balls boys. Speak up.
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Clinton and Obama: Welp, USA you brought this on yourselves. Next time you will vote Democrat, won't you. No? Then you can't be helped.
Bush Jr: Like ma noo paintin'? It's of one of my oil rigs!
Biden: I remember back on Scranton...
Carter: ..........................................
 
Trump and Vance have destroyed NATO and five eyes is looking shaky too. It's going to take some time for Europe, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and the UK to regroup and fill in the large pieces of security and intelligence the USA provided, but they will. Then the USA will find life a lot harder internationally.

Trump and MAGA are so ******* dumb they don't realise that they are destroying their own country. No one is going to want to trade with the USA. No one is going to trust the USA is a mutual security partner. Americans are going to be hated in even more parts of the world than they are now. Well, except Russia.

Perhaps Russia should start selling family tartan for tourists from their good friends in the USA!
 
Norman Alexander said:
Clinton and Obama: Welp, USA you brought this on yourselves. Next time you will vote Democrat, won't you. No? Then you can't be helped.
Bush Jr: Like ma noo paintin'? It's of one of my oil rigs!
Biden: I remember back on Scranton...
Carter: ..........................................
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The worst is the democratic saint Carter, he's praised to high heaven, but we've not heard a single word from him about what is happening. Not so much a saint now eh you democrats!
 
Ivor the Engineer said:
Trump and Vance have destroyed NATO and five eyes is looking shaky too. It's going to take some time for Europe, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and the UK to regroup and fill in the large pieces of security and intelligence the USA provided, but they will. Then the USA will find life a lot harder internationally.

Trump and MAGA are so ******* dumb they don't realise that they are destroying their own country. No one is going to want to trade with the USA. No one is going to trust the USA is a mutual security partner. Americans are going to be hated in even more parts of the world than they are now. Well, except Russia.

Perhaps Russia should start selling family tartan for tourists from their good friends in the USA!
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If only it were so easy. But let's be real, the US is too big to fail and too big to be ignored. Other countries will always be ready to make deals.
And I guess many in the US are silently complicit or at least can't be bothered that much with Trump being the elephant in the china shop, because they are at a safe distance to the china shop. Ot at least they think they are.
 
carlosy said:
If only it were so easy. But let's be real, the US is too big to fail and too big to be ignored. Other countries will always be ready to make deals.
And I guess many in the US are silently complicit or at least can't be bothered that much with Trump being the elephant in the china shop, because they are at a safe distance to the china shop. Ot at least they think they are.
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Oh the USA won't fail, it'll just become a lot less powerful. The only thing it will have is its hard power, which it will have to weald unilaterally because it's going to have zero support from its former allies.
 
lionking said:
The question is why the surviving ex-presidents are silent.

Yes, I know it’s not conventional, but Trump has thrown conventions in the garbage bin.

Show some balls boys. Speak up.
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I don't think it would matter if they do or if they have spoken up.

Trump and MAGA are essentially a rebuke to all former presidents. If they speak up, Trump will simply say, "See, the warmongers don't like me. I must be doing something right."

The fact is that Trump, Vance, Musk, RFK Jr and all the other scumbags are plugged into an ever-evolving meme-machine in which they just ride the the talking points of Twitter.

If immigrants are fleeing war zones, especially "military-age men" then they are fake asylum seekers and should go back to where they come from to fight. Of course, if they do, then they are mocked by Vance and others for being conscripts sent to fight a hopeless war.

Ultimately it is all a bad joke to these people where taking things seriously is seen as being an NPC in the Matrix.

Sadly, and as much respect as I have for Zelensky, I think he may have ended up making a mistake by getting upset with Trump and Vance. Those two dickheads where parading their usual grievances that have bubbled up from the MAGAmeme-o-sphere, so Zelensky probably should have been ready for those things.

It's a complete injustice, but this is an unjust world. Trump and Vance and the other shitbags were flaunting their power in the dynamic knowing that ultimately Zelensky is at a severe power disadvantage. As much of a ◊◊◊◊ as Trump is, he is correct that Zelensky has a weak hand when he himself admits that as much help as Europe has given, the US help is truly indispensable.

I'm even wondering if, Zelensky might find his position untenable now. As much as he has been an amazingly defiant force for Ukraine, maybe he may need to step down and be replaced with someone like Klitschko. I only put that name out there because I don't know who else would fill the void. At least Trump and Vance might think twice about being rude to him, and if all else fails and the world burns, maybe at least Klitschko can do us all a favour and literally smack the living ◊◊◊◊ out of both of them.
 
Aridas said:
Quibble - "the US believes" is sorta meaningless here. It elevates Trump and co to being the US (which is reflexively objectionable, but still passable given that they officially represent the US currently) and Trump and co are rather infamously total BSers who lie all the time. May as well just say that Trump and co were trying to pretend that Ukraine is the US' puppet, under the US' nigh complete control, like Russia's been trying to pretend for a long time as one of the many lines of BS in their firehose of falsehood. Alternately said, when vranyo, or attempted vranyo, is in play, I quite object to describing that as "believes," because that gives a free and easy excuse for brazenly lying.
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Good point. It's not that the "US" believes that Ukraine should be grateful to the USA for actively trying to end the war, it's Trump and Vance.

It will be interesting to see if this shifts public opinion on support for Ukraine. According to Pew research, this support is currently split along party lines:
  • Democrats: 35% say "Not Enough;" 27% say "About right;" 14% say "Too much;" 23% say "Not sure"
  • Republicans: 10% say "Not Enough;" 20% say "About right;" 47% say "Too much;" 23% say "Not sure"
  • Total: 22% say "Not Enough;" 23% say "About right;" 30% say "Too much;" 24% say "Not sure"
The "Not enough" and "About right" components of the "Total" numbers show that at least 45% of Americans support aid to Ukraine. The "Too much" crowd is harder to parse, because they might support some aid as opposed to cutting it off altogether.
 
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On the street, word is the US has declared war on Europe. Right now, a cold one, but one that looks to explode soon enough in the form of Russian aggression... and, I am predicting, backed by not-so-discrete American intelligence support at the very least.

I bet all the F-35s have a kill switch. T.G. Europe has its own GPS. Allies? Never again. The Confederacy is a cyclical madness that has no cure.
 
Hlafordlaes said:
On the street, word is the US has declared war on Europe. Right now, a cold one, but one that looks to explode soon enough in the form of Russian aggression... and, I am predicting, backed by not-so-discrete American intelligence support at the very least.

I bet all the F-35s have a kill switch. T.G. Europe has its own GPS. Allies? Never again. The Confederacy is a cyclical madness that has no cure.
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I think a lot of people are still trying to process what happened yesterday and haven't quite realised what the consequences of Trump and Vance's attempted mugging of Zelenskyy are. US soft power destroyed. US allies gone. Rest of world regrouping and figuring out how to move on.

Hope Trump enjoys his round of golf!
 
Pixel42 said:
As I recall it was the USA and European countries that responded to the invasion by offering Zelensky and his government safe haven, so even if he'd expected them to "have his back" before the event he would have been quickly disabused of that notion. When he declined those offers the general expectation was that he would be dead within a couple of weeks; that's how long most commentators thought it would take for Russia to capture Kyiv, shoot him and install a puppet government. It was only when it became apparent that, amazingly, that was not going to happen that any western countries started to consider whether helping him might be the right thing to do.
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Spot on and saved me the trouble of posting the same. The Russian military was a few miles from Kyiv when Zelensky declined to evacuate. All the support he had at the time was some phone calls and promises of safe haven - they all thought Kyiv was going to fall in a few hours / days.
 
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