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Cont: Trump’s Coup - Part 2

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Hellbound said:
Yes, but the power of the President is not the only power.

They did try to seize the power of election certification.

That’s where we disagree.


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Then each of the J6ers charged should be facing charges of sedition. Why do you suppose they aren't? Those slow cogs of justice I keep hearing about have done turned for many of them.
 
Thermal said:
Then each of the J6ers charged should be facing charges of sedition. Why do you suppose they aren't? Those slow cogs of justice I keep hearing about have done turned for many of them.
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Because our justice system is imperfect, political considerations play a large role, and it fits the pattern established over the last 5 years of not holding certain political leaders or their followers accountable.

ETA: plus, offering lesser charges for those with a lower level of responsibility is common. The actual rioters I view more as useful idiots. I don’t really see an issue with this for most of them. I do believe that some of the planners should be charged with such, but again due to politics I don’t really expect them to be.

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To be fair, it is what I consider an edge case. I’d call it a coup attempt, but barely. I can understand someone having a different opinion.

I don’t understand the “there was nothing even remotely coup-like” insistence in some arguments, though.


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Hellbound said:
I think I may get Thermal’s argument.

They didn’t attempt to directly seize the power if the President, therefore not s coup.

I think that’s wrong.

They attempted to seize the power of the Vice-President and Congress, specifically the power to certify elections, as a means to indirectly seize Presidential power.

Maybe this will help clarify both sides?


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Good job, by the way, of clarifying Thermal's position. Ever do any mediation?
 
https://www.insider.com/capitol-rioters-who-pleaded-guilty-updated-list-2021-5

These are some of the crimes that the capital insurrectionists have pled guilty to already.

Jon Schaffer : Obstruction of an official proceeding; entering and remaining in a restricted building or grounds with a deadly or dangerous weapon

Paul Hodgkins : Obstruction of an official proceeding

Graydon Young : Two counts of conspiracy and one count of obstruction of Congress

Josiah Colt : Felony obstruction of Congress

Caleb Berry : Conspiracy and obstructing an official proceeding

Scott Fairlam : Obstruction of an official proceeding and assaulting; resisting or impeding certain officers

Devlyn Thompson : Assaulting, resisting, or impeding certain officers using a dangerous weapon

Duke Wilson : Assaulting, resisting, or impeding certain officers using a dangerous weapon; obstruction of an official proceeding

The obstruction makes it an attempted coup. The conspiracy makes it organized. The a assault and dangerous weapons make it violent.

So we have a (badly) organized violent insurrection, also a coup attempt. Cut. And. Dry.
 
In what follows, I'm using Thermal logic instead of ordinary logic.
Thermal said:
You have got to be ******* kidding me. I've addressed this exact analogy like half a dozen times already.
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No. You have attempted to address that analogy, but your attempt was incompetent, therefore unsuccessful, therefore not even an attempt to address the analogy.

dirtywick said:
Well I haven't followed the whole thing. But since I have you've mostly just been getting frustrated that insisting you've already won the argument isn't winning you the argument.
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In this next quotation, I have highlighted an example of how insisting you've already won the argument isn't the same as winning the argument, because it is only an attempt to win the argument, therefore not even trying to winning the argument, possibly because there was never any plan that could possibly win the argument, therefore no plan at all to win the argument, therefore no attempt to win the argument, therefore no argument at all.

Thermal said:
Which is not what I am saying, and have clarified repeatedly, much like I have painstakingly clarified that the end result has nothing to do with whether or not it was attempted.
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Thermal said:
Then each of the J6ers charged should be facing charges of sedition. Why do you suppose they aren't? Those slow cogs of justice I keep hearing about have done turned for many of them.
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Assaulting police officers with dangerous weapons in your conspiracy to obstruct Congress. Do you think that is bad?

Real question Thermal. Do you think it was wrong to assault police officers with dangerous weapons and conspire to obstruct Congress?
 
Thermal said:
We're not talking about crimes he's done (and btw, I've been howling about his crimes since literally the last century right up to today). We are talking about this one very specific crime. One of the greatest offenses that can be taken against the United States.
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Why doesn't your heuristic apply to his other clearly criminal acts? If they were criminal, why isn't he in prison?

You mean the OJ that was arrested, charged, and tried for murder? Let's compare with...oh Christ, why do I bother.
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But he didn't go to prison for it, which you specifically used as evidence that the coup attempt doesn't count, so why does your heuristic not apply there as well?

Are your goalposts on casters or do you get the hand truck each time?

Priceless. "They just can't be bothered to charge people with the one of the highest crimes committed against the Union". Seriously, you can't make this **** up.
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Correct, it is not being made up. Your personal incredulity doesn't actually argue against where the evidence leads.

As I've said over and over, I hope every one goes down in serious prison time. But what I asked you is why aren't they charged now, or six months ago, if it is as obvious and indisputable as you claim?

It's simple. If it is recognized as a coup attempt, that is one of the most serious crimes against the nation. Trump would not be walking as a free man. Period. You guys just can't see that external reality does not agree with you. It agrees with me. Why haven't any of the hundreds of J6ers been charged with sedition if it is so obvious and indisputable?

Tell me again how the DOJ, Democrat controlled Congress, and Democratic Executive branch can't be bothered to charge them with this offense against the State. I peed a little the last time.
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It's like you just forget all the other problems of our country still exist. The minority can still bog everything down especially when the majority has people exactly like you, thinking it couldn't have been a coup. 'This can't be happening' is a very natural, human reaction to historic, dangerous, events from Covid to coup. It is not a reaction worth coddling though.
 
Hey look at that we're arguing the definition of treason again for not ******* reason.
 
Hellbound said:
I think I may get Thermal’s argument.

They didn’t attempt to directly seize the power if the President, therefore not s coup.

I think that’s wrong.

They attempted to seize the power of the Vice-President and Congress, specifically the power to certify elections, as a means to indirectly seize Presidential power.

Maybe this will help clarify both sides?


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Paul2 said:
Good job, by the way, of clarifying Thermal's position. Ever do any mediation?
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Unfortunately several posters have made this exact point, then we all get lost in Thermal's handwaves and many subsequently try to find some other reasoning that must be in play before circling back.
 
digger said:
Assaulting police officers with dangerous weapons in your conspiracy to obstruct Congress. Do you think that is bad?

Real question Thermal. Do you think it was wrong to assault police officers with dangerous weapons and conspire to obstruct Congress?
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If this is a real question, then this isn't a real discussion. This is dumber than waxing metaphysical on what "such" could mean, or arguing via thesaurus, both literally tried upthread. See ya on the next one.
 
McConnell says Jan. 6 committee's findings are 'something the public needs to know'

WASHINGTON — Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-Ky., said Thursday that he looks forward to seeing what the House select committee investigating the Jan. 6 attack on the Capitol finds in its probe.

“It was a horrendous event and I think what they are seeking to find out is something the public needs to know,” McConnell said in an interview with Spectrum News.

McConnell’s interest in the investigation is notable since he had opposed the creation of a bipartisan Jan. 6 commission, calling the idea “slanted and unbalanced.”

The minority leader's comments are a stark contrast to those of his GOP counterpart in the House, Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy, R-Calif., who has denounced the committee’s work as purely partisan.

Earlier this week, McConnell was pressed about what he was hoping to learn from the Jan. 6 committee.

“Well, I’m like you. I read the reports every day,” he said at a press conference. “And it’ll be interesting to see what they conclude.”
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Maybe he's mad at Trump because of this?

GOP blows off Trump’s bid to oust McConnell

Former President Donald Trump has hit a wall in his efforts to oust Mitch McConnell as GOP leader.

Despite months of attacks, the Trump-led campaign to depose the Senate minority leader has resulted in firm pledges from just two Republican candidates and no senators, and it has failed to turn up a formidable challenger to run against McConnell.
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The former president, who remains critical of McConnell for declining to help him overturn the results of the 2020 election, has ramped up his calls for the Kentucky Republican’s ouster from leadership in recent weeks. This week alone, Trump issued several official statements lambasting McConnell, saying the GOP leader “saved the Democrats” by striking a deal to allow them to raise the debt ceiling, which caused some consternation within the Senate GOP.

“How this guy can stay as Leader is beyond comprehension—this is coming not only from me, but from virtually everyone in the Republican Party,” Trump wrote Thursday. “He is a disaster and should be replaced as ‘Leader’ ASAP!”

The barrage of attacks on McConnell have been amplified by Fox News hosts Tucker Carlson and Sean Hannity, who have also gone after the GOP leader on air this fall. Carlson, during a segment last week, announced that his show would begin regularly highlighting problems with McConnell, whom he described as “an instrument of the left.”
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:dl:
 
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Sadly I think a lot of the older guard of the GOP really do think they can do a "Trump? Who? Oh Trump, yeah barely knew the guy" 180 after years of toadying sycophantic ass kissing and get away with it.

McConnell is exactly the kind of douchebag who will now try to act like he was never on Trump's side to begin with.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Sadly I think a lot of the older guard of the GOP really do think they can do a "Trump? Who? Oh Trump, yeah barely knew the guy" 180 after years of toadying sycophantic ass kissing and get away with it.

McConnell is exactly the kind of douchebag who will now try to act like he was never on Trump's side to begin with.
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I have no faith that the GQP voters will even bat an eye at this.
 
Dr. Keith said:
I have no faith that the GQP voters will even bat an eye at this.
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Well of course not. Reasonable people will get upset at this and making people upset is the only thing they care about.

As long as they get to "tweak the libs" no amount of wrongness, evil, hypocrisy, or hell even damage to them will bother the voters on the Right.
 
Thermal said:
By the time you go from "coup" to "incompetent attempted coup that never got off the ground because there was no one to make it happen", doesn't it make a little more sense to just stop trying to label it what it wasn't? Seems like a waste of perfectly good qualifiers.
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Seems to me that willingness to attempt a coup is pretty pivotal ingredient and it's noteworthy to point out. Considering so much of our system ultimately boils down to "norms" and people in official positions of power acting in good faith, it's noteworthy when it's no longer safe to assume that politicians will accept a defeat.

Failed coups often precede successful coups. This failed coup, like many others, provided useful data about what institutions are important and need to be co-opted in order to be successful.

Considering the right wing is moving very quickly to correct the shortcomings of this failed coup (getting lackeys into obscure but important offices involved in vote certification), it strikes me as intentionally obtuse to just hand-wave this away as whatever you might want to call it.

The Beer Hall Putsch was laughably half-baked, as a historical parallel
 
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Again as I've said a dozen times an unpunished attempt at a coup is just a training exercise.
 
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