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Cont: Trump’s Coup - Part 2

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Wait, what is the spin supposed to be? Do you think “he didn’t call in the guard” is meant to misread as “nobody ever called in the guard?”
 
Lithrael said:
Wait, what is the spin supposed to be? Do you think “he didn’t call in the guard” is meant to misread as “nobody ever called in the guard?”
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As long as we aren't actually discussing Trump's egregious behaviors.

The way some people initially state something and then add qualifications as the discussion emerges, now that my friends, needs to be addressed and quashed for the shameful behavior that it is.
 
Thermal said:
Here was you yesterday ... Compare those two statements. Make up your bull **** excuses for how you are not contradicting yourself and rewriting the story at every opportunity...
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I shouldn't have stated that as fact. I should have qualified: It's widely reported that Trump didn't order in the Guard.

I never thought/posted that you lied. But I do see how my poor word choice could be construed that way. Mea culpa.
 
varwoche said:
I shouldn't have stated that as fact. I should have qualified: It's widely reported that Trump didn't order in the Guard.

I never thought/posted that you lied. But I do see how my poor word choice could be construed that way. Mea culpa.
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Thank you, and same here. Being more aggressive than you deserved.
 
Thermal said:
Doesn't change the fact that the statements are literally contradictory And backpedaling, while accusing me of backpedaling. And that's what we are talking about here: putting on so much spin that the meaning changes.

No one disputes the facts. The devil is in the doctoring of the narrative. I think we should be literally correct to be in the superior argumentative position (and I mean all of us). Leave it to the Trumster Fires to lie about stolen elections. We should be on the side of unimpugnable accuracy. We should not say "Trump did not order the DCNJ, and in the next breath say "well it is reported he resisted."
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The are not literally contradictory at all. Trump did not call in the guard AND he resisted doing so when asked. It fell on others to do so.


Numerous reports and statements from defense officials show Trump was not involved in the deployment of the D.C. National Guard to quell the riot at the Capitol.

Acting Defense Secretary Miller used vague instructions that Trump had given days before the riot to "take any necessary steps to support civilian law enforcement requests in securing the Capitol and federal buildings."

Reports show Trump initially was hesitant to get the DCNG involved, forcing officials to look to Pence for White House support.

The deployment of the National Guard was not "immediate." It took multiple requests for troops from D.C. and out-of-state law enforcement to gain authorization from federal defense officials to assist at the Capitol.
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https://www.newsweek.com/fact-check...l-guard-after-rioters-stormed-capitol-1560186
 
For me, the reason it adds up as a credible coup attempt is this--the mob (especially the vanguard of it that battled police) indeed had a plan that would result in an unlawful seizure of power--it was to intimidate or coerce Pence into refusing to certify the election.

The inadequately prepared, inadequately reinforced Capitol Police barely managed to stop them from physically reaching the congresspeople and the VP. Given the violence used to enter, I don't think they came to shout slogans and get on the news. They intended to use force to prevent certification. Had they achieved that it honestly had a shot of putting us into an apparent "constitutional crisis" which could justify using means more favorable to Trump to determine the president--which would be the next phase of the coup attempt. The only thing that stopped it was that the defense of the Capitol was JUST adequate enough to get everyone away, and that Pence refused to be intimidated.

So if success being implausible is what keeps it from being a coup attempt--what is the implausible part? Before that day I would have thought it implausible to overwhelm the physical security of the building. But that actually happened, so clearly that was plausible after all. So what else is implausible? That Pence would have taken questionably legal steps to block succession? As I understand it he was contemplating doing it without any intimidation and was talked out of it by former VP Quayle. Not sure we could could count on his refusal under genuine threat. Or is it implausible that Pence trying that would hold up in court? Is it really implausible that a 6-3 SCOTUS majority, half of the conservative side being appointed by the very person involved, would cobble together a rationale to use the house delegations?

Far from implausible, for my money it was so close as to be genuinely frightening. The only reason it didn't work is because it happened to fail at the point of breach because everyone got out. Not because it couldn't work. So that's why you wound up with people "wandering around and taking selfies". Not from being goal-less, but from having already failed.
 
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The part I could see the brilliant minds in the White House attempting goes like this:
1. Delay past January 6th.
2. The Constitution says the certification must occur on January 6th. The date can only be changed by the Congress.
3. On the 7th, since the certification didn't happen in accordance with the Constitution, we get a judge to halt the proceedings.
4. We appeal to some other court (SC?) to get the election thrown back to the majority republican state legislatures.
5. PROFIT!
 
His lawyers were telling him if Pence declined to certify Republican legislatures in key states would appoint alternate electors that would certify a Trump win after they had presented their evidence of fraud. Ideally to get the case in front of the SC where he had hand picked 3 justices.

None of that was very likely to happen, as we saw.

The key part in all of this though is that Trump absolutely believed it could work, and he got rid of anyone that told him it wouldn’t. If he was right and this had a chance, like for instance if Ashli Babbitt wasn’t shot to death and they had gotten in the chambers and delayed the certification or worse, at no point would he have stepped in and said “it’s all bullying and bluster, Biden won, let’s go home guys”

He would have seen the whole thing through and everyone knows that.
 
dirtywick said:
The key part in all of this though is that Trump absolutely believed it could work, and he got rid of anyone that told him it wouldn’t. If he was right and this had a chance, like for instance if Ashli Babbitt wasn’t shot to death and they had gotten in the chambers and delayed the certification or worse, at no point would he have stepped in and said “it’s all bullying and bluster, Biden won, let’s go home guys”

He would have seen the whole thing through and everyone knows that.
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Nonsense. Trump had nothing to do with what happened, he was just a spectator.

This conspiracy theory claiming that Trump incited a coup attempt is a nothingburger, a fantasy invented by lying Democrats and swallowed whole by credulous liberals.

  • There was no protest, just a few sightseers who wanted a tour of the building.
  • Or if there was a protest, it was entirely peaceful and legal. The reported violence is fake news.
  • Or if there was violence, no conservatives were involved - only Antifa and BLM operatives who infiltrated the crowd.
  • Or if conservatives were involved in the violence, it was totally spontaneous and uncoordinated.
  • Or if it was coordinated, the organizers certainly were not incited by anything Trump said.
  • Or if they were incited by Trump's words, that's not his fault because he was only joking!

[/gaslight]
 
gnome said:
For me, the reason it adds up as a credible coup attempt is this--the mob (especially the vanguard of it that battled police) indeed had a plan that would result in an unlawful seizure of power--it was to intimidate or coerce Pence into refusing to certify the election...They intended to use force to prevent certification. Had they achieved that it honestly had a shot of putting us into an apparent "constitutional crisis" which could justify using means more favorable to Trump to determine the president--which would be the next phase of the coup attempt. The only thing that stopped it was that the defense of the Capitol was JUST adequate enough to get everyone away, and that Pence refused to be intimidated...
Far from implausible, for my money it was so close as to be genuinely frightening. The only reason it didn't work is because it happened to fail at the point of breach because everyone got out. Not because it couldn't work. So that's why you wound up with people "wandering around and taking selfies". Not from being goal-less, but from having already failed.
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I think this is a pretty good (edited) description of what happened. I agree with it. I would also add, I've seen it said that had the mob actually murdered members of Congress and/or Vice President Pence then trump might have planned to use that as a pretext to declare martial law.
 
'Get them ready now': Matt Gaetz and Steve Bannon discuss plan to take over government with 'shock troops'

Rep. Matt Gaetz (R-FL) on Thursday talked with conservative broadcaster Steve Bannon about a plan to use "4,000 shock troops" to take over the jobs of federal government employees.

Bannon has previously said that the so-called "shock troops" need to be prepared prior to Republican control of the executive branch.

"People didn't like that Donald Trump raised his voice but sometimes you've got to raise your voice to raise a ruckus and to raise an army of patriots who love this country and will fight for her," Gaetz said on Bannon's War Room program. "We're going to operationalize the performance to go right after the people who are imposing the vaccine mandates, who are enriching themselves and who are selling out the country."

"Understand, this is a theory of governing," Bannon agreed. "It's fresh and it's new. This is Trumpism in power. That's when we went to the 4,000 shock troops we have to have that's going to man the government. Get them ready now. Right? We're going to hit the beach with the landing teams and the beachhead teams and all that nomenclature they use when President Trump wins in 2024 -- or before."
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You know who else participated in a coup? Guys with names like George Washington, James Madison, Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin. Trump honors -- and surpasses -- their legacy. Small-minded leftists think assume that whoever gets the most votes wins, but Donald Trump is truly the people's president.
 
dirtywick said:
https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/dec/10/trump-powerpoint-mark-meadows-capitol-attack

And in case that’s too hard to follow apparently they put it in a power point
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But, but, but...it wasn't a 'coup' attempt! They were merely discussing what could hypothetically happen, ya know...if for some reason a crowd of regular tourists just happened to be inside the Capitol with pepper spray, baseball bats, and stun guns (likely bought in the Capitol gift shop) looking for Mike Pence and Nancy Pelosi so they could shake their hands.
 
Stacyhs said:
But, but, but...it wasn't a 'coup' attempt! They were merely discussing what could hypothetically happen, ya know...if for some reason a crowd of regular tourists just happened to be inside the Capitol with pepper spray, baseball bats, and stun guns (likely bought in the Capitol gift shop) looking for Mike Pence and Nancy Pelosi so they could shake their hands.
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When Babbit got shot climbing through the shattered window, one can see elected officials being shepherded out the door at the other end of a 50 foot corridor. But oh no, it was nowhere near a coup attempt, somehow. And that is on their own videos.
 
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