Cont: Trump’s Coup - Part 2

[Fast Eddie B]

This thread is becoming like Groundhog Day.

And tedious.

 

[thaiboxerken]

No, I meant what I asked. Would it help if we went over the difference between seizing political power and being flaming douchebags? We can do that if it helps you.

The crowds on Jan 6th were the threat of death/injury/violence. They committed plenty of violence, and made plenty of threats. If not for barricaded doors and other security, a score or more of congress people would be dead today.

 

[carlitos]

And they actually attempted to actually seize power. For a brief time, they stopped the certification which, in their mind, was a step toward their goal.

Not just in their minds. This was explicitly part of the plan that Bannon, Roger Stone and the other conspirators at the Willard Hotel meeting on Jan 5 had planned. Since Pence wouldn't play ball and defy the constitution, they sought to delay the certification via a riot so that they could pull some shenanigans with the electors in several states. This will come out in the Jan 6 hearings.

 

[Thermal]

But, then, what was the purpose of making the distinction between the two here:
if not to say that they were mutually exclusive, and, therefore, because they were douchebags, they were not a threat?

Here's the context:

I don't mean to imply that you could not have had any other purpose but to mean that they were mutually exclusive. I took it that way, but if you meant something else, I'm all ears.

I meant it as written. The distinction is not between what could or couldn't be happening simultaneously. The distinction is between what did and didn't happen (IMO).

A repeated conflation in this discussion is that they could be flaming **** knuckles and still be attempting a coup. My contention is that they were only the former, and not the latter. The assertion that they are not exclusive is irrelevant if they were not the latter.

And, by the way, we were having a reasonable conversation, and then you went all rhetorical over-play on me just because I plainly (but pointedly, admittedly) reminded you that this was the third time I pointed out the mutually exclusive problem. Can you dial it back in your response to me so we can keep this even-keeled?

Pointedness can come across as condescension. Apologies if I misread the tone.

My meta-point here is that I think sin needs intent to be sinful. You can't unknowingly stage a coup, and I'm confident that the J6 boys had not the foggiest idea what they were doing, or even desired to do besides somehow vaguely support Trump. The rest was garden variety rioting. Don't know what more I can say on the subject.

I note in that oft-cited Cline article that the threat needs to be credible to satisfy their requirements for a coup attempt. I'd be interested to know what satisfied them that those nitwits had the force and power to topple the Republic in any meaningful way. They have provided no follow-up to their January piece.

Again, sorry if I sounded sharp. Repetition breeds aggression.

 

[Thermal]

Nope. The FBI didn't weigh in on coup attempt yes/no. You're engaging in self-serving extrapolation.

Regarding your dismissal of "some school based group" ... how very anti-intellectual.

Seriously, man? They are not exactly a widely deferred-to authority. They are a group that data mines on social topics. Not exactly the clout of Amnesty International or the United Nations. I can go to any Hall of Acedamia and find some group claiming authority on anything. Having an official looking name doesn't give them cred in coup assessment. .

 

[Babbylonian]

This thread has been thoroughly bobbed. Feigned ignorance and outright lies. Not surprising at all.

 

[Paul2]

I meant it as written. The distinction is not between what could or couldn't be happening simultaneously. The distinction is between what did and didn't happen (IMO).

A repeated conflation in this discussion is that they could be flaming **** knuckles and still be attempting a coup. My contention is that they were only the former, and not the latter. The assertion that they are not exclusive is irrelevant if they were not the latter.

But you've previously argued that their incompetence meant that they couldn't have been attempting a coup. Isn't "douchebag" just a synonym for incompetence? You really *do* mean to say that they are mutually exclusive - you can't be incompetent (=douchbag) and attempt a coup. Please explain.

Pointedness can come across as condescension.

I understand.

Apologies if I misread the tone.

No problem.

My meta-point here is that I think sin needs intent to be sinful. You can't unknowingly stage a coup, and I'm confident that the J6 boys had not the foggiest idea what they were doing, or even desired to do besides somehow vaguely support Trump. The rest was garden variety rioting. Don't know what more I can say on the subject.

At the least, they were being used. that still counts.

Repetition breeds aggression.

Frustration at least.

 

[Thermal]

But you've previously argued that their incompetence meant that they couldn't have been attempting a coup. Isn't "douchebag" just a synonym for incompetence? You really *do* mean to say that they are mutually exclusive - you can't be incompetent (=douchbag) and attempt a coup. Please explain.

No, and I think I have clarified this several times. I'm not evuating in hindsight. I am pointing out that, as I see it, they had no objective, least of all a coup attempt.

I am perfectly ok with the idea that you can rile up dogs and turn them loose, and the dogs have no idea at all what they are supposed to do beyond general mayhem. That sits fine with me.

Many here seem to think that there has to be a clear reason and motivation for such action. A coup is a perfectly plausible explanation. But I think Trump was inciting them for the sake of his ego, not to actually *do* anything. Recall that he beat feet right after saying he was going with them.

I see January 6 as a speech that Trump thought would result in some kind of dramatic protest on the Capitol steps, mostly as an ego boost for the Electoral Loser. I think he was just as shocked as anyone by what happened, and stared numbly at the TV as it unfolded.

The J6ers themselves had no idea at all what they were doing. That's why I bring up the hindsight view: their wandering around taking selfies shows that they never really planned anything. Didn't give it much thought. Bombs not detonated and guns not fired show this as well. It was a big role play that they had no intention at all of following through with.

Posers are a thing. Guys showing their buddies what hard-asses they are by carrying guns have a habit of not firing them.

At the least, they were being used. that still counts.

Used as an ego boost, I'd agree. I don't think that actually attacking the Capitol Building was forethought. I think Trump underestimated just how unAmerican his lackeys were.

 

[Paul2]

No, and I think I have clarified this several times. I'm not evuating in hindsight. I am pointing out that, as I see it, they had no objective, least of all a coup attempt.

I am perfectly ok with the idea that you can rile up dogs and turn them loose, and the dogs have no idea at all what they are supposed to do beyond general mayhem. That sits fine with me.

Many here seem to think that there has to be a clear reason and motivation for such action. A coup is a perfectly plausible explanation. But I think Trump was inciting them for the sake of his ego, not to actually *do* anything. Recall that he beat feet right after saying he was going with them.

I see January 6 as a speech that Trump thought would result in some kind of dramatic protest on the Capitol steps, mostly as an ego boost for the Electoral Loser. I think he was just as shocked as anyone by what happened, and stared numbly at the TV as it unfolded.

The J6ers themselves had no idea at all what they were doing. That's why I bring up the hindsight view: their wandering around taking selfies shows that they never really planned anything. Didn't give it much thought. Bombs not detonated and guns not fired show this as well. It was a big role play that they had no intention at all of following through with.

Posers are a thing. Guys showing their buddies what hard-asses they are by carrying guns have a habit of not firing them.



Used as an ego boost, I'd agree. I don't think that actually attacking the Capitol Building was forethought. I think Trump underestimated just how unAmerican his lackeys were.

Thermal, the only way I think our conversation will be productive going forward is if we went full syllogism, because things are not on track. I'm reluctant to do that though, so I'm going to bow out.

See you 'round the forums.

 

[carlitos]

The Oath Keepers, III%ers and Proud Boys had helmets and shields and gas masks and walkie-talkies plus a weapons cache across the river, and they charged the capitol in formation, succeeding in being the first to breach the entrance, but they "had no idea what they were doing" and weren't organized. This is more of an underpants gnome logic than a syllogism.

 

[Paul2]

The Oath Keepers, III%ers and Proud Boys had helmets and shields and gas masks and walkie-talkies plus a weapons cache across the river, and they charged the capitol in formation, succeeding in being the first to breach the entrance, but they "had no idea what they were doing" and weren't organized. This is more of an underpants gnome logic than a syllogism.

Even giving Thermal the benefit of the (not really any) doubt, things got too mixed up.

 

[Thermal]

The Oath Keepers, III%ers and Proud Boys had helmets and shields and gas masks and walkie-talkies plus a weapons cache across the river, and they charged the capitol in formation, succeeding in being the first to breach the entrance, but they "had no idea what they were doing" and weren't organized. This is more of an underpants gnome logic than a syllogism.

The toys needed for a full tilt riot, indeed. The proud bitches et al make use of them frequently.

But you forgot about the couping part. What did they have to wrest power away from the mightiest nation on Earth? You can even count the stuff they forgot and left in the truck

You guys think you can credibly overthrow the world's largest military with a ******* slingshot and MAGA hat. Seriously, I'd like to hear all the details you think you are privy to about this totally credible overthrow. I'll even forward it to the FBI in your name. You're welcome.

 

[Thermal]

Thermal, the only way I think our conversation will be productive going forward is if we went full syllogism, because things are not on track. I'm reluctant to do that though, so I'm going to bow out.

See you 'round the forums.

Your good faith debate style is much appreciated.

 

[Stacyhs]

The toys needed for a full tilt riot, indeed. The proud bitches et al make use of them frequently.

But you forgot about the couping part. What did they have to wrest power away from the mightiest nation on Earth? You can even count the stuff they forgot and left in the truck

You guys think you can credibly overthrow the world's largest military with a ******* slingshot and MAGA hat. Seriously, I'd like to hear all the details you think you are privy to about this totally credible overthrow. I'll even forward it to the FBI in your name. You're welcome.

Ya know, it's good to know when to put down the shovel and just stop digging. This is it.

 

[carlitos]

The toys needed for a full tilt riot, indeed. The proud bitches et al make use of them frequently.

But you forgot about the couping part. What did they have to wrest power away from the mightiest nation on Earth? You can even count the stuff they forgot and left in the truck

You guys think you can credibly overthrow the world's largest military with a ******* slingshot and MAGA hat. Seriously, I'd like to hear all the details you think you are privy to about this totally credible overthrow. I'll even forward it to the FBI in your name. You're welcome.

Preventing or delaying the electoral college certification ≠ overthrowing the military. Not all coups are military coups, or the term wouldn't exist.

 

[Thermal]

Ya know, it's good to know when to put down the shovel and just stop digging. This is it.

I'm being serious. One of that Cline Center criteria for being considered a coup/attempt is credibility. How do you guys see anything about this as a credible threat to seize power?

I'm not being rhetorical. I'd like to know what you see that I don't, even if we disagree. It looks to me like swooning and pearl clutching, more than sober assessment.

 

[carlitos]

I'm being serious. One of that Cline Center criteria for being considered a coup/attempt is credibility. How do you guys see anything about this as a credible threat to seize power?

I'm not being rhetorical. I'd like to know what you see that I don't, even if we disagree. It looks to me like swooning and pearl clutching, more than sober assessment.

Forgetting absolutely everything else, there is this:

The president's close circle of advisors and dozens of attorneys general organize, pay for and send a group to riot and storm the capitol in DC on January 6, in order to delay / prevent the electoral certification to give them more time to strong-arm state governments and the VP.

 

[dirtywick]

Forgetting absolutely everything else, there is this:

The president's close circle of advisors and dozens of attorneys general organize, pay for and send a group to riot and storm the capitol in DC on January 6, in order to delay / prevent the electoral certification to give them more time to strong-arm state governments and the VP.

Yes this was his plan as outlined by him months before the event and in a speech immediately before. Pence was supposed to refuse to certify the election and it would get kicked back to the states where legislatures could appoint alternate electors. Pence and a few RINOs didn’t want to go along with it because they didn’t have the courage but this extreme action was justified by the rampant election fraud and lack of time and he just needed some patriots to walk down there and help convince Pence to do the right thing.

 

[a_unique_person]

This has already been covered, and the article was written on 1/27/21. Well before any exhaustive investigation.

The basic facts were well known to anyone watching the news. That included Trump watched the events at the Capitol live.

 

[Lurch]

No, and I think I have clarified this several times. I'm not evuating in hindsight. I am pointing out that, as I see it, they had no objective, least of all a coup attempt.

I am perfectly ok with the idea that you can rile up dogs and turn them loose, and the dogs have no idea at all what they are supposed to do beyond general mayhem. That sits fine with me.

Many here seem to think that there has to be a clear reason and motivation for such action. A coup is a perfectly plausible explanation. But I think Trump was inciting them for the sake of his ego, not to actually *do* anything. Recall that he beat feet right after saying he was going with them.

I see January 6 as a speech that Trump thought would result in some kind of dramatic protest on the Capitol steps, mostly as an ego boost for the Electoral Loser. I think he was just as shocked as anyone by what happened, and stared numbly at the TV as it unfolded.

The J6ers themselves had no idea at all what they were doing. That's why I bring up the hindsight view: their wandering around taking selfies shows that they never really planned anything. Didn't give it much thought. Bombs not detonated and guns not fired show this as well. It was a big role play that they had no intention at all of following through with.

Posers are a thing. Guys showing their buddies what hard-asses they are by carrying guns have a habit of not firing them.



Used as an ego boost, I'd agree. I don't think that actually attacking the Capitol Building was forethought. I think Trump underestimated just how unAmerican his lackeys were.

Trump was taken aback and stared numbly at the TV as the attack progressed?

Now I know you're a dishonest actor, trying to gaslight.

Trump was visibly pleased, and it took hours to convince him to call off his mutts with a recorded address. Which took several takes because he either 'forgot' or refused to actually tell them to go home. And at the end he stressed how much he loved them.