Cont: Trump’s Coup - Part 2

[thaiboxerken]

More like you are holding up a tomato and I'm pointing out that in point of fact, it's a banana. Then I note how it is yellow, long and universe shaped. And you say "yep. Tomato. Tomato sounds better and more exciting".

It's actually red and you are saying it's yellow because calling it red is too edgy.

 

[Thermal]

You mean besides the crowds that invaded the Capitol on January 6th?

No, I meant what I asked. Would it help if we went over the difference between seizing political power and being flaming douchebags? We can do that if it helps you.

 

[Paul2]

No, I meant what I asked. Would it help if we went over the difference between seizing political power and being flaming douchebags? We can do that if it helps you.

For the third (?) time, they are not mutually exclusive. Being a FB does not disqualify one from being a part of trying to seize political power.

 

[Upchurch]

No, I meant what I asked. Would it help if we went over the difference between seizing political power and being flaming douchebags? We can do that if it helps you.

They can, in fact, be both at the same time.

And the flaming douchebag MAGA heads at the insurrection were the ones "who ordered Congress to reinstate Trump under threat of immediate, illegal direct and lethal violence". That is exactly what they were doing. That is what they were demanding with "Stop The Steal" as they violently and illegally stormed into the Capitol building, seized the Senate floor, attempted to access the House floor, and threatened to kill various members of the government to obtain their goals.

Everything you're requiring for to be a coup is there. For some reason, you are focusing on all the parts that are not directly related and ignoring the parts that exactly what you're asking for.

 

[Thermal]

For the third (?) time, they are not mutually exclusive. Being a FB does not disqualify one from being a part of trying to seize political power.

And for far more than the third time: yes, I know. What I'm saying, and dear god repeatedly, is that they actually did one but did not do the other.

Do you understand that simple idea? They are not exclusive, completely agreed. What I am repeating is that they are not ******* concurrent either.

You have one, and not the other. Crowing over and over that they are not mutually exclusive does not change the fact that they are factually ******* exclusive. One is there. The other is not.

 

[Thermal]

They can, in fact, be both at the same time.

And the flaming douchebag MAGA heads at the insurrection were the ones "who ordered Congress to reinstate Trump under threat of immediate, illegal direct and lethal violence". That is exactly what they were doing. That is what they were demanding with "Stop The Steal" as they violently and illegally stormed into the Capitol building, seized the Senate floor, attempted to access the House floor, and threatened to kill various members of the government to obtain their goals.

Everything you're requiring for to be a coup is there. For some reason, you are focusing on all the parts that are not directly related and ignoring the parts that exactly what you're asking for.

*rubbing temples*

No, Upchurch. No. What I am requiring....nay, what the definition is requiring...is an actual ******* attempt to actually ******* seize ******* power.

At this point, I have to bow out and leave you guys to this 4chan nightmare. You just won't hear what you don't want to hear. Its maddening.

 

[dirtywick]

breaking into the capitol to stop the transition of power so the guy you wanted to win can retain the presidency under that individuals direct instructions seems like it should count as an attempt to seize power?

i'll throw a question mark on there but it seems obvious what the correct answer is

 

[Lurch]

The issue I have with the Cookie Conundrum is that it it too binary a comparison. You did attempt to get it, or you did not.

The J6 argument is whether it was an attempt at all, or something dumber. I honestly feel like you guys are giving them way to much credit. I doubt a single one even understood what a coup d'etat even is, much less attempted to orchestrate one. Where you see a political faction with a clear political goal, I see dogs chasing cars.

Which one is more consistent with the end result? Woof, say I.

Your phrasing here suggests to me that you are looking no farther than the Capitol mob.

Are you ignoring Trump and Co., including that cabal holed up at their Willard Hotel 'War Room'? Are you suggesting none of these peeps understood what comprises a coup?

The Capitol storming was not for the immediate (or even later) benefit of the mob. The ultimate benefactor was Trump. The mob was but a tool directed by him and other coordinators.

Your seeming fixation on the pawns, who turned out to be disposable patsies, blinds you to the more insidious plays.

Take the near installation of a sycophant to the position of acting AG, a move which was thwarted by a passel of DOJ officials who threatened to resign en masse if that happened. Why would Trump want to install a pliable supporter of his election lie to such a crucial post mere days/weeks before the House certification?

How about his shady Pentagon appointment, also after the election?

These and numerous moves by him telegraphed his intentions to have allies in key positions when the moment of their need should arise. He did a hell of a lot more toward achieving his goal that applying imaginary telekinesis to beam a cookie into his little paw.

 

[dirtywick]

after two months of rhetoric and his instructions immediately before they marched down the street and started breaking in, acting like these people didn't know where they were going or what to do when they got there and why seems insane to me

 

[Mike!]

I'm guessing dogs still chase cars, right? I mean, I know they did a lot when we were kids, so I'm assuming it's still a thing on some level, even with leash laws and people having to pick up their dogs after business and whatnot. It used to be a pretty regular thing at one time...
Having witnessed it as a child, I have never once thought, despite the canines obvious unbridled enthusiasm for the pursuit, that it had the slightest clue what it would do were it to actually catch the offending vehicle.
That's how I see the idiots that stormed the capital that day. A whole lot of enthusiasm without a clue as to what the actual means to an end would be.
Clearly Trump and company were desperately grasping for straws at that point as well, and weren't going to be of any help to them ether.

None of the above is an excuse for their stupidity and I fully support throwing the proverbial book at them.
If a burglar breaks into my house and is too dimwitted to steal my valuables I still want them charged and prosecuted.

 

[dirtywick]

Trump isn’t a particularly subtle person. Meandering, absolutely. But not subtle. He spent an hour explaining the various ways he was defrauded from the election, who is responsible, who can but refuses to reverse it, and where to find that particular individual. Then told everyone to go there.

It’s not really as complicated as some are making it seem

 

[Upchurch]

*rubbing temples*

No, Upchurch. No. What I am requiring....nay, what the definition is requiring...is an actual ******* attempt to actually ******* seize ******* power.

And they actually attempted to actually seize power. For a brief time, they stopped the certification which, in their mind, was a step toward their goal.

You just won't hear what you don't want to hear. Its maddening.

I mean, so is all the projection.

 

[varwoche]

Whaddya know, there exists...

The Cline Center for Advanced Social Research is a nonpartisan research center at the University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign with over a decade of experience in systematically categorizing acts of protest and political violence around the world. Since its initial public release in 2013, the Cline Center’s Coup D’état Project has aimed to document every coup, attempted coup, and coup conspiracy anywhere in the world since 1945.​

Their conclusion:

Using Cline Center definitions, the storming of the US Capitol Building on January 6, 2021 was an attempted coup d’état. At the time of this writing, the Cline Center’s Coup D’état Project classifies the type of attempt as a dissident coup.​

 

[Warp12]

Whaddya know, there exists...

The Cline Center for Advanced Social Research is a nonpartisan research center at the University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign with over a decade of experience in systematically categorizing acts of protest and political violence around the world. Since its initial public release in 2013, the Cline Center’s Coup D’état Project has aimed to document every coup, attempted coup, and coup conspiracy anywhere in the world since 1945.​

Their conclusion:

Using Cline Center definitions, the storming of the US Capitol Building on January 6, 2021 was an attempted coup d’état. At the time of this writing, the Cline Center’s Coup D’état Project classifies the type of attempt as a dissident coup.​

This has already been covered, and the article was written on 1/27/21. Well before any exhaustive investigation.

 

[thaiboxerken]

This has already been covered, and the article was written on 1/27/21. Well before any exhaustive investigation.

It doesn't matter. They made conclusions based on publicly known facts. New facts introduced from investigations further support the conclusion.

 

[Warp12]

It doesn't matter. They made conclusions based on publicly known facts. New facts introduced from investigations further support the conclusion.

Again, you must have missed the earlier discussion.

This thread is becoming like Groundhog Day.

 

[Thermal]

Man, who to believe? The FBI, who says it was not, or some school based group in Illinois I've never heard of who says it was? Tough call.

 

[Paul2]

And for far more than the third time: yes, I know. What I'm saying, and dear god repeatedly, is that they actually did one but did not do the other.

Do you understand that simple idea? They are not exclusive, completely agreed. What I am repeating is that they are not ******* concurrent either.

You have one, and not the other. Crowing over and over that they are not mutually exclusive does not change the fact that they are factually ******* exclusive. One is there. The other is not.

But, then, what was the purpose of making the distinction between the two here:

No, I meant what I asked. Would it help if we went over the difference between seizing political power and being flaming douchebags? We can do that if it helps you.

if not to say that they were mutually exclusive, and, therefore, because they were douchebags, they were not a threat?

Here's the context:

If a person tries to rob a bank with a toy gun, is it a crime if the bank tellers notice it's just a toy and do not comply and the toy gunner just leaves?

Yes. Why do you ask?

If he demands the cashier hand over cash, under threat of illegal, immediate and direct lethal violence. that's an attempted robbery. Can you point to the coup-coups who ordered Congress to reinstate Trump under threat of immediate, illegal direct and lethal violence?

You mean besides the crowds that invaded the Capitol on January 6th?

No, I meant what I asked. Would it help if we went over the difference between seizing political power and being flaming douchebags? We can do that if it helps you.

I don't mean to imply that you could not have had any other purpose but to mean that they were mutually exclusive. I took it that way, but if you meant something else, I'm all ears.

And, by the way, we were having a reasonable conversation, and then you went all rhetorical over-play on me just because I plainly (but pointedly, admittedly) reminded you that this was the third time I pointed out the mutually exclusive problem. Can you dial it back in your response to me so we can keep this even-keeled?

 

[ponderingturtle]

I reject your comparison of something that would break the laws of physics - telekinesis - with (for the sake of argument) the unlikelihood of the Jan 6 attackers succeeding.

Yea the guy who tried to rob a waffle house with finger guns is probably a better comparison. Funnily enough he is being charged with attempted robbery.

 

[varwoche]

Man, who to believe? The FBI, who says it was not, or some school based group in Illinois I've never heard of who says it was? Tough call.

Nope. The FBI didn't weigh in on coup attempt yes/no. You're engaging in self-serving extrapolation.

Regarding your dismissal of "some school based group" ... how very anti-intellectual.