Cont: Trump’s Coup - Part 2

[Stacyhs]

First felony sentencing just dropped:

www.twitter.com/ZoeTillman/status/1417157292341010433

He got 8 months is prison. I think that's certainly not too little time, but I don't really know how much more would be appropriate. This is really uncharted territory.

 

[Thermal]

When the dog catches the car are there 5 dead, over 140 injured police, and millions of $ in damage?

A lot of dogs can do a lot of damage, obviously. They can't overthrow a government, nor would they even want to. They are a different threat. That doesn't make a dog bite less painful. It does not mean that the dog bite will overthrow your Constitution and descend your nation into fascism while it invades Canada. Its a ******* dog bite.

 

[wareyin]

A lot of dogs can do a lot of damage, obviously. They can't overthrow a government, nor would they even want to. They are a different threat. That doesn't make a dog bite less painful. It does not mean that the dog bite will overthrow your Constitution and descend your nation into fascism while it invades Canada. Its a ******* dog bite.

I see...the 1/6 riots are basically a dog bite? Are you sure you're not minimizing them, just a tad?

 

[gnome]

Is a dog chasing a car trying to stop it? Or does it not have the foggiest idea why he's chasing it or what he will do with it?

I can't escape the idea that we're arguing over answers to two different questions. Let me back up. What proposition would you like me to agree with?

 

[Paul2]

Of course. But I'd lay money that no significant number had thoughts of overthrow. They likely had thoughts of parading and posturing and parroting Dear Leader.

Replacing "overthrow" with "prevent the certification" or "stop the Electoral College" would increase the number.

It's just a guess, but I guess that most people marching on the Capital understood that Trump wanted the certification stopped. Didn't Trump mention Pence "doing the right thing?" That comment is based on the understanding that Pence was the key figure in certification. So the march and the entry into the Capitol was in service of that objective.

Maybe some thought that the mere show of numbers outside the Capitol might influence Pence or others. Maybe some thought that merely entering the Capitol would influence things. Maybe some thought that occupying the Senate floor would change things. Maybe some thought kidnapping Pence would change things. The objective is the same in every case.

But I doubt most seriously that democracy, or Senators, or Vice Pres Pence was in any real peril. Hell, they quietly walked home for dinner. They didn't even have the chops to stick around for a sit-in, much less actually try to overthrow the government.

Their incompetence or lack of resolve doesn't change what the goal was.

I think that you and others are seeing this from what would have been going through your minds at the time. Plans, objectives, evaluating, etc. Try to picture what would be going through your mind if you were, say, a third as bright as you are.

You guys dramatically overestimate this crew. They don't have nearly as much going on upstairs as you give them credit for. This cat knows the vacuous when he sees them.

You're taking my distinction the wrong way. My distinguishing between the objective and the plan was made in order to say (which I didn't explicitly, I admit) that the lack of a plan doesn't change what the objective was.

 

[Thermal]

I see...the 1/6 riots are basically a dog bite? Are you sure you're not minimizing them, just a tad?

Please reread the first sentence in the post you were responding to very, very carefully.

 

[Paul2]

I can't escape the idea that we're arguing over answers to two different questions. Let me back up. What proposition would you like me to agree with?

I imagine that Thermal's proposition - sorry for speaking for you, Therm. - is that the events of 1/6 were not a coup.

But it doesn't matter if it was a coup or not, that's just semantics. It is exactly what it was, and, in my opinion, it was a danger to the democracy, it was horrible, it should be condemned in the strongest possible terms, and we should do everything we can to ensure that nothing remotely like it happens again.

Anticipating Thermal, it doesn't matter how incompetent they were; even if we admit they were very incompetent, they weren't so incompetent as to let the cat out of the bag for future insurrectionists who may not be so incompetent.

 

[Thermal]

I can't escape the idea that we're arguing over answers to two different questions. Let me back up. What proposition would you like me to agree with?

I dunno. What propositions you got?

Seriously, my argument is to be objective and accurate, versus hyperbolic and swooning. I don't think that should be too high a bar on a skeptics forum. Call a coup a coup, and call mindless violent douchebaggery in kind.

 

[Thermal]

I imagine that Thermal's proposition - sorry for speaking for you, Therm. - is that the events of 1/6 were not a coup.

But it doesn't matter if it was a coup or not, that's just semantics. It is exactly what it was, and, in my opinion, it was a danger to the democracy, it was horrible, it should be condemned in the strongest possible terms, and we should do everything we can to ensure that nothing remotely like it happens again.

Anticipating Thermal, it doesn't matter how incompetent they were; even if we admit they were very incompetent, they weren't so incompetent as to let the cat out of the bag for future insurrectionists who may not be so incompetent.

Its not at all the competency; it is the objective.

They did not, IMO, stage an incompetent coup attempt. They staged a very competent disruption of the election certification. What I do not see is any attempt whatsoever to go beyond making noise.

Calling it a coup attempt is to misread these clowns entirely, and you don't win fights by badly misreading your opponent.

Eta: forgot: in terms of future insurrectionists, they just made it much harder for them. We have some history now to guide future security standards.

 

[wareyin]

Please reread the first sentence in the post you were responding to very, very carefully.

I did. It doesn't change the appearance that you're minimizing the attack on the Capitol Building with comparisons to dog bites or dogs chasing cars.

I dunno. What propositions you got?

Seriously, my argument is to be objective and accurate, versus hyperbolic and swooning. I don't think that should be too high a bar on a skeptics forum. Call a coup a coup, and call mindless violent douchebaggery in kind.

Can exaggerated minimizing be hyperbolic? Like, wildly understating is just as wild as wildly overstating...

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I very seriously doubt that many of them had that objective. I think most had more of a "whoo hoo! Let's get 'em!" mentality, with not the foggiest idea what to do or how to do it or what it would even entail. I believe this because it is the explanation most consistent with their actions.

You think they had a clear political objective and then...what? Forgot once they got passed the police?

Given the evidence slowly accruing against the more than 500 of the involved idiots, they most certainly were trying to stop the vote certification. It was not "whoo hoo! Let's get 'em!".

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

When? When he said it would be wild? When he said to march up there and he would be with them? None of that says to me "let's overthrow the government".

Dogs. Chasing. Cars.

No, when he said the election was stolen and started the Big Lie.

And Dump also told them it was possible to stop that certification and Pence and a few GOP legislators actually had the authority to do that.

 

[Thermal]

I did. It doesn't change the appearance that you're minimizing the attack on the Capitol Building with comparisons to dog bites or dogs chasing cars.



Can exaggerated minimizing be hyperbolic? Like, wildly understating is just as wild as wildly overstating...

You keep repeating that I am minimizing. That is untrue, and dishonest. I have said several times that Pres Biden should be contracting to build new prisons for each and every one of the Dildos to while away some years.

Let me ask you a serious question: with all the charges against hundreds of Dildos, do you see ******* coup attempts among them? Why don't you think a bit about why that might be.

 

[Thermal]

Given the evidence slowly accruing against the more than 500 of the involved idiots, they most certainly were trying to stop the vote certification. It was not "whoo hoo! Let's get 'em!".

Dead ass serious: I don't think many thought that far ahead, in terms of the political ramifications. I think they saw it as the equivalent of a street march writ large. No actual, hard objective. That is consistent with their actions after the fight with police.

No, when he said the election was stolen and started the Big Lie.

And Dump also told them it was possible to stop that certification and Pence and a few GOP legislators actually had the authority to do that.

Yes, Trump incited and fanned the fires. My observation is that those fires were far more random than some here assume.

 

[Paul2]

Its not at all the competency; it is the objective.

They did not, IMO, stage an incompetent coup attempt. They staged a very competent disruption of the election certification. What I do not see is any attempt whatsoever to go beyond making noise.

You're stating what they accomplished, but their objective was to prevent the certification of the vote that gave Biden the Presidency. Trump basically asked them to do so, just not in so many words, whether it was by influencing Pence without physically touching him or harming him, or the alternative, which would have worked, too.

Calling it a coup attempt is to misread these clowns entirely, and you don't win fights by badly misreading your opponent.

What you call it doesn't matter nearly as much as evaluating the significance of the actions and behaviors that happened, which I did in a very recent (my most recent?) post.

Eta: forgot: in terms of future insurrectionists, they just made it much harder for them. We have some history now to guide future security standards.

Granted, but the significance of 1/6 is not so much a question of security standards, but is a question of the political/social cat that is out of the bag, and the other anti-democratic, conspiratorial, and authoritarian tendencies of the Orange Madness.

 

[wareyin]

You keep repeating that I am minimizing. That is untrue, and dishonest. I have said several times that Pres Biden should be contracting to build new prisons for each and every one of the Dildos to while away some years.

You've also said several times that these guys were dogs chasing cars. We don't file charges against dogs for chasing cars, so that sure feels like minimizing to me.

Let me ask you a serious question: with all the charges against hundreds of Dildos, do you see ******* coup attempts among them? Why don't you think a bit about why that might be.

Yes I certainly see coup attempts among them. The whole 'overthrow the government and install who I want in charge' kinda gave that away.

If the question is do I see charges for attempting a coup, then no. Probably because that's not actually codified into law.

 

[Thermal]

You've also said several times that these guys were dogs chasing cars. We don't file charges against dogs for chasing cars, so that sure feels like minimizing to me.

Then you're reading too much into it. Describing a mindset with a commonly understood descriptor shouldn't negate repeated assertions that this was very bad news and they should all be in prison. See bias, confirmation.

Yes I certainly see coup attempts among them. The whole 'overthrow the government and install who I want in charge' kinda gave that away.

If the question is do I see charges for attempting a coup, then no. Probably because that's not actually codified into law.

You wanna bet that attempting to violently overthrow government is not codified into law?

 

[shemp]

He got 8 months is prison. I think that's certainly not too little time, but I don't really know how much more would be appropriate. This is really uncharted territory.

Hanging would have been too lenient for him.

 

[wareyin]

Then you're reading too much into it. Describing a mindset with a commonly understood descriptor shouldn't negate repeated assertions that this was very bad news and they should all be in prison. See bias, confirmation.

A dog chasing a car just happens to be there when the car drives by. These seditionists had to plan ahead to get there, and several planned ahead to the tune of weapons, restraining devices, and a literal gallows.

A dog chasing a car is caught up in the moment. People that drive or fly for hours to do stuff are not dogs chasing cars.

You wanna bet that attempting to violently overthrow government is not codified into law?

You cite the law, then explain why it doesn't apply.

 

[Thermal]

A dog chasing a car just happens to be there when the car drives by. These seditionists had to plan ahead to get there, and several planned ahead to the tune of weapons, restraining devices, and a literal gallows.

A dog chasing a car is caught up in the moment. People that drive or fly for hours to do stuff are not dogs chasing cars.

Dissect the common figure of speech into oblivion, then, and pretend you don't understand the point. Fine.

You cite the law, then explain why it doesn't apply.

Just for the kickoff:

439, 54 Stat. 670, 18 U.S.C. § 2385 is a United States federal statute that was enacted on June 28, 1940. It set criminal penalties for advocating the overthrow of the U.S. government by force or violence, and required all non-citizen adult residents to register with the federal government.