Cont: Trump’s Coup - Part 2

[Thermal]

He obviously tried. I wouldn't have to write that except you're not expressing yourself clearly.

It was credible enough that Chairman of the Joint Chiefs urgently planned how to circumvent.

While I realize that Jan 6 overshadowed June 1.... how soon they forget..

(1) There was a lot more than talk. You're foisting rank bs.
(2) Do you grant other isms a pass based on ineptitude?

The simplest way to put this:

The Dildo Stormers were a pack of dogs chasing a car. They caught it, and of course didn't know what to do with it. You and yours think the dogs were plotting an organized carjacking.

This is not complicated. A coup, by any definition, is an attempt to wrest power undemocratically. The dildos had no actual objective. They were ******* dogs chasing a ******* car. Go put Spot and Fido on the stand and charge them with conspiracy to commit carjacking. Whatever. I say throw the rabid things in the pound for what they really did.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Make lobbying transparent so that everyone can see exactly who is lobbying who, and how much they are doing it.

We do that.

Turns out not enough people care to even look at such data, let alone consider it in their voting choices.

 

[slyjoe]

We do that.

Turns out not enough people care to even look at such data, let alone consider it in their voting choices.

No, but political opponents do.

 

[Paul2]

The simplest way to put this:

The Dildo Stormers were a pack of dogs chasing a car. They caught it, and of course didn't know what to do with it. You and yours think the dogs were plotting an organized carjacking.

This is not complicated. A coup, by any definition, is an attempt to wrest power undemocratically. The dildos had no actual objective. They were ******* dogs chasing a ******* car. Go put Spot and Fido on the stand and charge them with conspiracy to commit carjacking. Whatever. I say throw the rabid things in the pound for what they really did.

Their objective was to prevent the certification of the electoral college vote.

 

[Thermal]

Their objective was to prevent the certification of the electoral college vote.

I very seriously doubt that many of them had that objective. I think most had more of a "whoo hoo! Let's get 'em!" mentality, with not the foggiest idea what to do or how to do it or what it would even entail. I believe this because it is the explanation most consistent with their actions.

You think they had a clear political objective and then...what? Forgot once they got passed the police?

 

[gnome]

We do that.

Turns out not enough people care to even look at such data, let alone consider it in their voting choices.

Perhaps not as much as they should, but it also adds risk to shenanigans by creating a paper trail, or the conspicuous absence of a paper trail where it's expected.
It can be researched for legal action, it can be used for opposition research as someone pointed out, and it can be brought to light by investigative journalism.
It makes secret financial relationships harder. Some of the biggest crimes are hidden in boring ledgers.

I should note that this should not be the only check on the influence of lobbying. Just that it does actually count for something.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

I very seriously doubt that many of them had that objective. I think most had more of a "whoo hoo! Let's get 'em!" mentality, with not the foggiest idea what to do or how to do it or what it would even entail. I believe this because it is the explanation most consistent with their actions.

You think they had a clear political objective and then...what? Forgot once they got passed the police?

Trump gave them a clear objective in his speeches, there and then, and in the weeks before m

 

[Thermal]

Trump gave them a clear objective in his speeches, there and then, and in the weeks before m

When? When he said it would be wild? When he said to march up there and he would be with them? None of that says to me "let's overthrow the government".

Dogs. Chasing. Cars.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

I very seriously doubt that many of them had that objective. I think most had more of a "whoo hoo! Let's get 'em!" mentality, with not the foggiest idea what to do or how to do it or what it would even entail. I believe this because it is the explanation most consistent with their actions.

You think they had a clear political objective and then...what? Forgot once they got passed the police?

When? When he said it would be wild? When he said to march up there and he would be with them? None of that says to me "let's overthrow the government".

Dogs. Chasing. Cars.

So it's all Trump's fault, in your opinion?
Or should people be responsible for their own actions?

 

[Thermal]

So it's all Trump's fault, in your opinion?
Or should people be responsible for their own actions?

...wut?

I think each has full responsibility for their own part. Trump for inciting imminent lawless action, and each Dildo for willingly complying. All committed serious crimes. Attempting a coup was not one of them.

 

[gnome]

I very seriously doubt that many of them had that objective. I think most had more of a "whoo hoo! Let's get 'em!" mentality, with not the foggiest idea what to do or how to do it or what it would even entail. I believe this because it is the explanation most consistent with their actions.

You think they had a clear political objective and then...what? Forgot once they got passed the police?

I don't know about a "clear political objective", but yes, I think that they wanted to prevent the certification of electors. It happens that their plan didn't extend further than occupying the building. I tend to think they bought into the idea that once that had been done, there would be more instructions from Trump or other powerful figures they believed to be allied. Had they actually reached any congresspeople I don't know what they would have done.

 

[gnome]

...wut?

I think each has full responsibility for their own part. Trump for inciting imminent lawless action, and each Dildo for willingly complying. All committed serious crimes. Attempting a coup was not one of them.

And yet if each of those parties had achieved their goals, they would have successfully used force to prevent the transition of power. I don't know if that's an "according to Hoyle" coup, but does it really minimize the significance in any way? Call it something else if you want, I'm not sure what that changes.

 

[Paul2]

I very seriously doubt that many of them had that objective. I think most had more of a "whoo hoo! Let's get 'em!" mentality, with not the foggiest idea what to do or how to do it or what it would even entail. I believe this because it is the explanation most consistent with their actions.

You think they had a clear political objective and then...what? Forgot once they got passed the police?

Neither of us have any idea how many people had the objective to stop the certification of the electoral college and how many didn't. However, I think it's safe to say that, among those who were not along just for the ride, among those who had an actual objective, the objective was to stop the certification. The invasion of the Capitol did not happen on Jan. 6 for no reason, it wasn't a coincidence.

Having an objective, as opposed to just being along for the ride, is separate from having a considered plan as to how to achieve that objective.

 

[d4m10n]

First felony sentencing just dropped:

www.twitter.com/ZoeTillman/status/1417157292341010433

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Perhaps not as much as they should, but it also adds risk to shenanigans by creating a paper trail, or the conspicuous absence of a paper trail where it's expected.
It can be researched for legal action, it can be used for opposition research as someone pointed out, and it can be brought to light by investigative journalism.
It makes secret financial relationships harder. Some of the biggest crimes are hidden in boring ledgers.

I should note that this should not be the only check on the influence of lobbying. Just that it does actually count for something.

All of that is theoretically true.

Yet there is a 98% incumbency rate.

I saw a story a few days ago about Fox Corp PAC contributing $1500 to Manchin. This was excoriated as clear patronage.

So I pulled up that committee's recent contributions. Plenty of less reviled figures have gotten more than that. Hell they gave $5000 to the Congressional Black Caucus.

That is part of the reason the odor doesn't offend anyone (enough to make a difference in the outcome that actually matters), it is so prevalent it doesn't even register.

 

[Thermal]

And yet if each of those parties had achieved their goals, they would have successfully used force to prevent the transition of power. I don't know if that's an "according to Hoyle" coup, but does it really minimize the significance in any way? Call it something else if you want, I'm not sure what that changes.

It changes the entire nature of the threat. People trying to overthrow the government is a deadly serious problem. People getting excited and dramatic but having no serious political agenda even when it's handed to them on a silver platter is quite a different threat.

Kind of like saying Trump is literally Hitler. No he's not. He is a very different threat. And to deal with threats realistically, you have to be unswervingly accurate in your assessment, or you will miss the real tigers while battling paper ones.

 

[Thermal]

Neither of us have any idea how many people had the objective to stop the certification of the electoral college and how many didn't. However, I think it's safe to say that, among those who were not along just for the ride, among those who had an actual objective, the objective was to stop the certification. The invasion of the Capitol did not happen on Jan. 6 for no reason, it wasn't a coincidence.

Of course. But I'd lay money that no significant number had thoughts of overthrow. They likely had thoughts of parading and posturing and parroting Dear Leader.
But I doubt most seriously that democracy, or Senators, or Vice Pres Pence was in any real peril. Hell, they quietly walked home for dinner. They didn't even have the chops to stick around for a sit-in, much less actually try to overthrow the government.

Having an objective, as opposed to just being along for the ride, is separate from having a considered plan as to how to achieve that objective.

I think that you and others are seeing this from what would have been going through your minds at the time. Plans, objectives, evaluating, etc. Try to picture what would be going through your mind if you were, say, a third as bright as you are.

You guys dramatically overestimate this crew. They don't have nearly as much going on upstairs as you give them credit for. This cat knows the vacuous when he sees them.

 

[gnome]

It changes the entire nature of the threat. People trying to overthrow the government is a deadly serious problem. People getting excited and dramatic but having no serious political agenda even when it's handed to them on a silver platter is quite a different threat.

Kind of like saying Trump is literally Hitler. No he's not. He is a very different threat. And to deal with threats realistically, you have to be unswervingly accurate in your assessment, or you will miss the real tigers while battling paper ones.

Anyone attempting force on the election and succession process, especially proceeding as far as this one did, is as deadly serious as an attempted coup, even if you don't want to classify it as a coup.

If someone's shooting at car tires instead of the driver, they're still trying to stop the car.

 

[Thermal]

Anyone attempting force on the election and succession process, especially proceeding as far as this one did, is as deadly serious as an attempted coup, even if you don't want to classify it as a coup.

If someone's shooting at car tires instead of the driver, they're still trying to stop the car.

Is a dog chasing a car trying to stop it? Or does it not have the foggiest idea why he's chasing it or what he will do with it?

 

[wareyin]

Is a dog chasing a car trying to stop it? Or does it not have the foggiest idea why he's chasing it or what he will do with it?

When the dog catches the car are there 5 dead, over 140 injured police, and millions of $ in damage?