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Trump's Coup d'état.

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angrysoba said:
I think the GOP probably see no downsides to this. In a way, they would be fine with Trump just shuffling off and making it easier on them not having to rationalize away his nonsense day after day, but then they watch him trying to push his bulldozer out of a ditch, a ridiculous thing to try and think, hey, we may as well just see if he can do it, and put their shoulders to the wheel anyway. The worst that can happen is that it stays in the ditch but there are apparently ZERO negative consequences to violating all accepted norms in an election for them so why not keep violating them. If nothing else it only helps to highlight the stress points that they will be able to exploit later when a more competent demagogue emerges. Maybe someone with an eyepatch.
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Yep. There will always be a Trump.
 
trustbutverify said:
We're referring to the soft (so far) coup Trump is attempting, correct? Where did JM claim Trump was winning that?
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My post was in reply to Mader Levap.
Justifying downplay of threat because "he is just too incompetent" is like saying - to use example that someone already told above - attempted murder is no big deal, since no one actually died.

You would turn blind eye to photo of teapot around Mercury anyway.

Oooh, another genius in "it is just incompetently attempted murder, so no big deal" camp.

Projection is strong in this one.
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Joe's post was inserted into the exchange.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Oh my God. You're really going to be this pedantic and picky about a turn of phrase as if "win" has one singular, absolute definition in this discussion?
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:boggled:

How about you go back to the post I replied to and tell me how your post fits in the exchange because things have gotten very muddled here and I don't feel like straightening it out.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Is he winning yet? :rolleyes:
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You are really in denial, aren't you. Or you can't see past your nose.

Let me say, or rather ask, it in simple words.

This is coup attempt (level of competency does not matter). Yes or no?

Even unsuccessful coup will make next time way, way easier. Yes or no?
 
eerok said:
I dunno. I like to think of him as a unique flower.

That can be torn up and ground underfoot.
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I think the GOP is going to have a hard time finding Trump II. It has to be non-politician, famous and similar "dumb talk" to his fans. Trump had the Apprentice background to launch himself from. Tucker Carlson? No. I have no idea.
 
Emily's Cat said:
It was intended as a counter to The Great Z's framing that Republicans are aiming to reduce democracy so they can get their way. All of the linked articles (and the review) are from left-leaning sources and authors, all of them bemoaning the fact that the problem with the US (which led to Trump) is that we have too much democracy, and that we'd really be better off if we took away some of that democracy so that people who know better can make sure we don't get into trouble.

Some of them do have good points with respect to risks in a democratic system. But my point was that it's not the Republicans pushing the "too much democracy" narrative.
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Omg. This post impresses me as flat out surreal.

Framing? Articles? What sort of bubble do you live in? One in which a POTUS is blatantly attempting to overthrow democracy, but that doesn't much matter. What matters is rank BS about framing and articles and whatever other red herrings you might conceive.
 
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Emily's Cat said:
It was intended as a counter to The Great Z's framing that Republicans are aiming to reduce democracy so they can get their way. All of the linked articles (and the review) are from left-leaning sources and authors, all of them bemoaning the fact that the problem with the US (which led to Trump) is that we have too much democracy, and that we'd really be better off if we took away some of that democracy so that people who know better can make sure we don't get into trouble.

Some of them do have good points with respect to risks in a democratic system. But my point was that it's not the Republicans pushing the "too much democracy" narrative.
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no, you just completely missed the point.

The articles you linked call for ways to make Democracy more effective, not to make a Democracy in which only Democrats win. This is not undemoratic.

What we see now (and have before) from Trump and Republicans is that they rig the system or simply refuse to accept elections if they don't go their way. This is very much undemoratic.

One group seeks to make the rules better for everyone.
The other group tries to change the rules so that only they can win.

Too bad you seem to think that those are the same things.
 
The "Bothsidist" can't tell the difference between a fair system where one side happens to win (because they are just better and not reality denying sociopaths) and an unfair system that is unfair by definition because one side wins.

I thought that everyone understood that "fair and balanced" had a "As long as both sides are living in the same reality" unspoken assumption to it. Perhaps I was wrong.

If 2+2 =4 every time you add it up that's because 2+2=4 is a fact, not because there's some bias against 2+2=a potato that you have to pitch a hissy fit over.
 
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Thermal said:
I don't care if he says he is Lord and Master of All Creation. He asked the courts to see things his way. He asked his supporters to ask officials to change the vote.

Asking is not a coup. Its just weak posturing and whining.
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I was only asking someone to kill someone else for money, there is nothing wrong with asking after all, why is this harmless talk suddenly a crime?
 
ponderingturtle said:
I was only asking someone to kill someone else for money, there is nothing wrong with asking after all, why is this harmless talk suddenly a crime?
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Yeah, crazy ****. I thought we had freedom of speech. Asking can't be a crime, right?

Leftist democrat mob wants to silence everyone. Now they are going to cancel the right to ask.
 
Tero said:
I think the GOP is going to have a hard time finding Trump II. It has to be non-politician, famous and similar "dumb talk" to his fans. Trump had the Apprentice background to launch himself from. Tucker Carlson? No. I have no idea.
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I'm afraid the GOP will have a wide selection of jackasses to choose from.
 
ponderingturtle said:
I was only asking someone to kill someone else for money, there is nothing wrong with asking after all, why is this harmless talk suddenly a crime?
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"Hey Icerat! Can I have the forum?"

There. A for realz legit bona fide coup attempt. Isn't it exciting?

There's plenty of real **** going on guys. This is a sad bluster, not "wresting power"
 
Trebuchet said:
About five years ago, Graham said that nominating Trump would destroy the Republican Party. He may yet be proved right about that.
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He was right, but it turns out he doesn't care that much after he earned a spot in the new Trumpublcian Party.
 
Thermal said:
"Hey Icerat! Can I have the forum?"

There. A for realz legit bona fide coup attempt. Isn't it exciting?

There's plenty of real **** going on guys. This is a sad bluster, not "wresting power"
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He is attempting to wrest power. Brazenly so. I realize we're all inured, but sometimes it's important to take a step back and get some perspective. The President of the United States is attempting to overturn a free and fair election. And the Republican party is complicit.

That's what I call real **** and then some.
 
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varwoche said:
He is attempting to wrest power. Brazenly so. I realize we're all inured, but sometimes it's important to take a step back and get some perspective. The President of the United States is attempting to overturn a free and fair election.

That's what I call real **** and then some.
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I of course agree that it is ****** up five ways from Sunday. What I disagree with is that is is anything remotely like a coup.

Every definition of a coup has something like "wresting control" or "seizing power" , bloody or not. In short, you have to have some teeth in there somewhere, be it guns or popular support or something, anything, to make it happen. That's why I think it falls far short of anything coup-ish. Its yapping, being met with a flat "nope" in four-part harmony with feeling.

Getting wound up about impotent bleating is something that seems beneath skeptics. I kind of like being on the side that doesn't get carried away in theatrical fantasy. Shouldn't we be focusing on the things that might be, you know, real?
 
Thermal said:
"Hey Icerat! Can I have the forum?"

There. A for realz legit bona fide coup attempt. Isn't it exciting?

There's plenty of real **** going on guys. This is a sad bluster, not "wresting power"
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Not quite comparable there, Icerat willingly giving you the forum because you asked wouldn't violate norms, ethics or principles of forum ownership.

If you began insisting daily that you were the rightful owner of the forum and that Icerat had stolen it from you and started having your lawyers calling the Forum's webhost demanding they turn it over to you, we'd be getting a little warmer.

The issue with a coup isn't just "Trying to get in power" but trying to do so in a way that subverts the established lawful and ethical grounding of power.

But I think there's a further misunderstanding here in where the danger lies.

I feel like you and likely SG seem to be thinking "There is no way that between the courts, appeals to stop certification of results and any faithless electors or other comparable legal shenanigans that 37 electoral college votes are changed from the current predictions to cast for Trump instead of Biden"

And on that point, I think most people in this thread are in agreement.The fact that the legal appeal won't work isn't the point.

The legal appeal and the conspiracy theories simply create the background for Trump, and some number of his supporters, citizens, elected GOP officials and appointed or hired people in government to maintain that the election is illegitimate.

What can they do with that after Jan 20th? Not entirely clear, and it depends how much buy-in they can wrangle.

We're in the middle of a pandemic and likely a major economic downturn that will absolutely require federal action. How does that play out if chunks of the country don't recognize the executive branch as legitimate? We're a nation of laws to a certain extent through the respecting of norms. If states or municipalities don't recognize the authority of the executive branch, what happens? Biden sends troops to enforce? That's not a great look, and the kind of thing that escalates bubbling tensions.

Maybe by late January all but a few kooks say "Alright alright, Biden is president, we don't like it, but whatcha gonna do?" That would be nice, but it would require Trump's spell being broken in a way I find it hard to count on with 100% confidence.

We know 100% that Trump will never concede that he lost a legitimate election.

We know 100% that Trump's popularity is sky high among the right wing, including a number of high level elected positions.

We know that at least over the last four years, the rest of the GOP has been so scared of alienating Trump's rabid followers that they went along with anything and everything, conceding that his base was the driving force in the right wing for elections at all levels.
 
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