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Trump's Coup d'état.

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Emily's Cat said:
Pointing out that trying to get recounts and challenging the results is not exactly uncommon is a reasonable and honest thing to do. The response is pretty much "Oh, but when Democrats do it, it's okay, because their motives are pure as the driven snow and they're doing it for all the right reasons!. And when Republicans do it, it's an evil attempted coup and everyone should go buy rifles and prepare themselves for the horrible violence that will be coming!".
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I just don't think that's an accurate characterization of what's going on.

When it comes to trying to get recounts, there's very little pushback on Republicans. Georgia law provides for recounts. Ok. Have a recount. Wisconsin law has recounts, if you pay for them. Ok. Pay the fee, get a recount. You don't hear all sorts of pushback on those things.

What you hear pushback on is Trump's efforts to have ballots thrown out, to declare fraud, and even to simply ignore results, as with the meeting happening right now in the White House with Michigan legislators. Trump isn't asking for a recount in my state. He's trying to get the one and only count pushed aside.

I truly think that there is a difference in kind when it comes to what has been done in past elections, and what is being done now. There is a disconnect because there really is a huge difference in behavior.

That doesn't mean we actually have to do anything differently, because whatever Trump is up to, whether he's serious about retaining power, or stark raving mad, or just doing his biggest super-trolling performance yet, it will all be over in a few months.


ETA: Originally written before the Michigan legislators left the White House.
 
Beelzebuddy said:
If we're down to spewing links, here's some relevant reading:

I Lived Through A Stupid Coup. America Is Having One Now
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Antonio_Tejero.jpg


I almost wonder if this kind of stupid coup, like we had in Spain ages ago, might not be healthier to handle in the medium & long term.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
USA Today: Georgia election official certifies Biden victory

Can you imagine a couple of GOP legislator sycophants from MI wasting their political careers by overturning the voters' choice in their state? It's a guaranteed fail move because apparently it isn't allowed under state law.
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If they thought that Trump was likely to have enough support to pull this off? Hell yeah, I can imagine that.

In fact, if Trump was not in such a weak position they could very well have concluded that it would be wasting their political careers to do otherwise.

Heck, they've come out with a statement contrary to this and I still don't trust them.
 
Emily's Cat said:
For me, it's because BOTH SIDES of this stupid thing we call politics in the US have been leaning on raw emotion for many years. They preach interpretations of facts, inferences of meaning, and assumptions of motive. The news, BOTH SIDES OF IT, feeds you a set of mostly innocuous objective facts, but wraps them up in a narrative that leads you to an apophenic conclusion of OMG HE'S THE MOST EVILEST THING EVER in which your ability to critically think and to weigh evidence and recognize speculation has simply evaporated.

I'm an atheist, in all possible senses of the term. But for a great many people here on ISF, politics has become their religion. They are dogmatic about it. They proselytize their beliefs, and they decry a lack of agreement with their religion as heresy. And anyone who dares to point out the down sides and the risks of their crusade are demonized as infidels who support the great evil which only their true faith can combat.

ETA* This is the royal "you" at play here, although I am not excusing you from my tirade.
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If a Democratic POTUS (and party) had conducted themselves with 1% of what we've seen the last 4+ years, and especially post election, you'd be apoplectic right now.
 
cosmicaug said:
Maybe what we have here is a failure to communicate.

Perhaps We don't have the level of agreement I assumed we had.

What is you understanding of a con here?

What are the implications of your understanding of any of this as being a con.

I certainly don't think any of this is in good faith. Nothing has ever not been a con with Donnie. I'd say up until now (including everything leading up to his first term) it has been a mostly successful con (I mean, he had to settle for the Trump University part of the con but he did become president of the USA —in terms of success that's not a small thing). So yeah, I think it has all been a con but maybe that means something different to me than it does to you?

What does "The news media fell for it yet again starting months ago with asking Trump if he would concede if he lost. Why did they even ask given it wasn't credible." even mean? None of this was a thing from a few months ago. He said the same since at least 2016, and he had been making non-stop statements by this point telegraphing pretty much exactly what he has tried to do, that's why they asked. From their perspective, they would have been failing as journalists had they not asked. He clearly wasn't joking in the non-responses he gave where he implied that he probably wouldn't concede. I guess that was a con. What does accepting that that was a con mean to me in practical terms? Do you think if only people had realized that this was a con he would have conceded? Do you think this shameless sociopath would say to himself "Oh my, people have finally figured out that I am a lying con man! I guess I better give up on this act!"?
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Re the bolded, unless there were rumors he was planning not to concede, what was the story the news media was following up on? This story began back in 2016 when the actual story was, would Trump run on a third party ticket if he lost the primary? That was reasonable news story at the time.

How did that warp into, will Trump concede* the election if he loses? Those two things, running on a 3rd party ticket and not leaving office when you lose the election, are unrelated.

*Concede as in leave the building, it's a given he is incapable of acknowledging he lost.

So again, what story was the news media following except to make one up because it sells the news? Or, were they just going with the story Trump made up for them to follow?

Maybe we can give them a little slack after he stuffed that last justice onto the SCOTUS bench. All his failed challenges to get votes tossed were newsworthy. But again, at what point should the media give up following the con Trump is pulling on them and say, 'looks like nothing has a chance in hell of getting to the SCOTUS'.

Instead, in classic Trumpian fashion this business of state legislators changing the election outcome popped up. A proper news report would leave Trump out of the story (except as a background character) and investigate and report on how this would actually work, not what the theory was. Had it ever been done before? And what is the makeup of the relevant state legislatures and state election laws?

Had they done that, the story would have been a proper one: there are no visible roads to a 2nd term here.

Instead Trump is at the center of the story where he loves to be and where he plays the media like a fiddle: Will he do it? Is he making any progress? Oh look, two shiny Republicans are coming to the WH, what could it mean? That is what I mean by the press falling for it.


Of course he would not have conceded if we all just laughed at him.

But without the media reporting all his 'only barely credible-at-first-glance' stories, Trump would have had absolutely no fuel to boondoggle anyone with.


I must admit that the last couple of decades of minority rule by GOP maneuvers remains an unhealed wound in my brain. I have hope a slew of young new voters might remedy that though it's no guarantee. The RNC remains more highly skilled than we bungling Democrats who have yet to understand marketing (latest evidence being the horrible "defund the police" messaging).

But after a couple of those lawsuits failed to toss out legal votes, I became less concerned this was about clever Republicans and merely about Trump trying to pull off another con.
 
johnny karate said:
What’s the hard line that Trump and his Republican enablers will not cross and how do you know they won’t cross it?

Because I would have thought sitting idly by while tens of thousands of Americans needlessly die would have been one such line.

I would have thought undermining the democratic process and sowing widespread distrust in our elections with absolutely bonkers conspiracy theories would have been one such line.

I would have thought actively obstructing the peaceful transition of the administration of a duly elected president would been one such line.

So tell me, where it this line? And how do you know it’s the line?
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All of those "I would have thought" sentences are things I agree with. And more than 70 million idiots didn't think it mattered.

But as for the first question, it's a different matter. Would a bunch of Trump sycophants take up arms and offer to follow him to civil war? There are probably some.

But that isn't the issue.

First was can Trump get a vote challenge to the SCOTUS and bask in the glory of favors paid back to him? That was his fantasy. That failed.

Can Trump get state legislators to go against their own interests and try to take over their state's electors?

The answer to that could have been resolved with a decent news media investigation. It has recently come to light that no, in MI they can't do that. Their state election laws don't allow it and once again Trump is back to a losing court case.

GA's GOP SoS refused such an attempt to toss out votes early on. So that state was out.

Have any reporters actually gone beyond 'here's the theory' to all the reasons that no, that cannot be done?

That's the line I am talking about that can't be crossed. It has nothing to do with Republicans and everything to do with the system.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Meh.

I don't see the parallels, frankly. Despite being described as a stable democracy, Sri Lanka isn't exactly one. They were fighting Tamil Tiger rebels until 2009.
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Apparently, genius isn't required to catastrophically undermine democratic institutions. Right?
 
johnny karate said:
I like how you start out by claiming it’s dishonest to expect you to know where the line is immediately followed up by you telling us where the line is.
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And I like how you pretend that the vague notion of 'risk' is a hard line.

We are living through one of the darkest periods of American history that is causing untold suffering for hundreds of thousands - if not millions - of people. The damage caused during the last four years hasn’t even fully manifested and will likely take a generation or more to undo.

People have earned the right to be concerned and express those concerns, even if some of those concerns seem far-fetched.
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Agreed, absolutely. And? Oh, wait...you think this is johnny karate's personal Echo Chamber? Bad news, bud; it's a discussion thread. Some discussion...and yes, even argument...might offend your delicate sensibilities. I've heard it said that you find comfort with those you agree with, and growth with those whom you don't. You've made it clear what you value.

Edited by zooterkin: 
<SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.
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As you said, these are dark times, and yes, I'll take a mean-spirited laugh at watching the soon-to-be-ex-POTUS humiliate himself on the International stage, considering his contribution to said darkness. But if you think I am lecturing, you're a damned fool. Many here are still tilting at the Trump windmill.

I'm saying we should relish this. Shout it loud and proud, and make sure every MAGA hat wearer sees, in high resolution, the kind of sniveling cowardly Loser they have been cheerleading for four long years. Sear it in the mind of every pick 'em up driver who is hastily rolling up their Trump flag. They backed a weakling, a petty tyrant, and they were entirely in the wrong Make sure they remember this.

Or, you know, keep entertaining this exciting fantasy about him having the power to establish a ******* coup.

I'll cop to being a smug jerk-off, tho. And as one to another, I hope you enjoy your nail-biting. He's just so powerful! I'll be over here watching him wipe his last shreds of dignity away like a cheap spray tan.
 
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MI state legislators shoot Trump down right outside the WH doors. Looks like a whole slew of them took the WH tour. Maybe they wanted group support.

Has Trump even made a move toward corrupting AZ or NV legislators?

Trump is going to give up soon if he hasn't already.
 
Chris Hayes has a good piece today about how Trump is weaponizing his claims the election was rigged. These are short clips of his piece.

He started with showing all the GOP Senators who said the voters should decide if they wanted to impeach Trump by voting him out, not the Senate.
Let the voters decide They need to hear themselves. They need reminding what they said then and what they are not saying now.


Next he talked about the disinformation bubble and how Trump was weaponizing it.
How do you govern when half the country is trapped in a disinformation bubble?


He went on to talk about Trump attempting a coup using Republican minions. He made it clear multiple times that it would not work. That doesn't mean there won't be consequences. This is what we need to pay attention to IMO.
‘Cowardly’: Chris Hayes on how Trump’s silent enablers are complicit in coup attempt

The MSM is getting stronger with messaging that the 'coup' has not and will not succeed. That's what they should be doing.


Remember simpler times in the JREF when the issues were teaching evolution in school and exposing the consequences of anti-vaxxers? Sigh.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Chris Hayes has a good piece today about how Trump is weaponizing his claims the election was rigged. These are short clips of his piece.

He started with showing all the GOP Senators who said the voters should decide if they wanted to impeach Trump by voting him out, not the Senate.
Let the voters decide They need to hear themselves. They need reminding what they said then and what they are not saying now.


Next he talked about the disinformation bubble and how Trump was weaponizing it.
How do you govern when half the country is trapped in a disinformation bubble?


He went on to talk about Trump attempting a coup using Republican minions. He made it clear multiple times that it would not work. That doesn't mean there won't be consequences. This is what we need to pay attention to IMO.
‘Cowardly’: Chris Hayes on how Trump’s silent enablers are complicit in coup attempt

The MSM is getting stronger with messaging that the 'coup' has not and will not succeed. That's what they should be doing.


Remember simpler times in the JREF when the issues were teaching evolution in school and exposing the consequences of anti-vaxxers? Sigh.
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So you are finally coming to agree with him that there is a coup attempt and that it is a serious matter.

Looks like you may yet earn your light side badge.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
He started with showing all the GOP Senators who said the voters should decide if they wanted to impeach Trump by voting him out, not the Senate.
Let the voters decide They need to hear themselves. They need reminding what they said then and what they are not saying now.
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Because that worked so well on Lindsey Graham, right?

Hypocrisy is not a rule they are playing by.
 
abaddon said:
Course not. The first is a broken link.
Of the remaining four They are op-eds and thus of no value, unless one enjoys the bloviating that occur in such pieces.
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I have to disagree that op-eds have no value. The question is whether the Republicans are more distrustful of democracy than Democrats. Looking at the expressed opinions of Democrats (or at least those who dislike Trump) seems quite appropriate to me.

That said, I don't reckon that these articles express any opinions comparable to overturning state results in the state legislatures. I haven't read most of them. If some were advocating faithless EC electors, then perhaps that's pretty similar.

I admit that I was more ambivalent about faithless electors than I am about using state legislatures to deny the vote. I still am, to some extent, since the whole reason for turning to the legislatures is based on the lie that the election was fixed. The argument in favor of faithless electors is that their job was to select the candidate for the state. They were chosen on the basis of their suitability to do this.

But I must admit that the historic purpose of the electors is much removed from their use these days and overturning an election by convincing the electors that the candidate is unfit is mighty suspect, barring startling revelations between election and the casting of EC votes. I reckon that had there been faithless electors in 2016, we would be in a far worse situation than we already are.
 
Time to pull your heads out of the sand, it's a coup attempt no matter how you slice it.

President Trump is using the power of his office to try to reverse the results of the election, orchestrating a far-reaching pressure campaign to persuade Republican officials in Michigan, Georgia and elsewhere to overturn the will of voters in what critics decried Thursday as an unprecedented subversion of democracy.

After courts rejected the Trump campaign’s baseless allegations of widespread voter fraud, the president is now trying to remain in power with a wholesale assault on the integrity of the vote by spreading misinformation and trying to persuade loyal Republicans to manipulate the electoral system on his behalf.
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-uses-power-of-presidency-to-try-to-overturn-the-election-and-stay-in-office/2020/11/19/bc89caa6-2a9f-11eb-8fa2-06e7cbb145c0_story.html

This isn't the editorial section btw, just plain old news reporting. The soft-coup attempt is simply a fact at this point.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
All of those "I would have thought" sentences are things I agree with. And more than 70 million idiots didn't think it mattered.

But as for the first question, it's a different matter. Would a bunch of Trump sycophants take up arms and offer to follow him to civil war? There are probably some.

But that isn't the issue.

First was can Trump get a vote challenge to the SCOTUS and bask in the glory of favors paid back to him? That was his fantasy. That failed.

Can Trump get state legislators to go against their own interests and try to take over their state's electors?

The answer to that could have been resolved with a decent news media investigation. It has recently come to light that no, in MI they can't do that. Their state election laws don't allow it and once again Trump is back to a losing court case.

GA's GOP SoS refused such an attempt to toss out votes early on. So that state was out.

Have any reporters actually gone beyond 'here's the theory' to all the reasons that no, that cannot be done?

That's the line I am talking about that can't be crossed. It has nothing to do with Republicans and everything to do with the system.
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I actually agree with you, and personally believe Trump’s efforts to overturn the election results will fail.

However, I’ve learned to hedge my bets on all things Trump in the last 5 or so years and my faith in the systems designed to keep people like him in check has been profoundly shaken.

But win or lose, Trump continues to severely damage this country. We’re hemorrhaging right now. And assurances that we probably won’t bleed out and die don’t feel very comforting.
 
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