Trump's Coup d'état.

[phiwum]

Meh. I'm just going to continue pointing out the selective interpretations, the blatant hypocrisy, and the willingness to just pretend that one side is all good and the other side is all bad.

Personally, I don't trust either of the parties, I see them engaging in essentially the same strategies but employing different tactics. Mostly, i see the partisan supporters of each party being rabidly devoted and dogmatic about it.

So yeah - you're right. Clinton conceded on election night... after Podesta had told her supporters that they wouldn't do anything until all the votes were counted, and after having been prompted to do so by Obama (I miss him). And then, after having conceded, she jumped on board Stein's challenges to do recounts and challenge the legitimacy of the outcome, to appease her supporters that the Democrats had done everything possible to make sure they actually did lose for really reals.

So tell me, in complete honesty... If Trump had verbally conceded when the race was called... but had then gone ahead and challenged the counts in the key states... would you view him as benignly as you do Clinton? Or would you still insist that he was trying to do a coup and overthrow democracy? Be brutally honest with yourself on this one.

Merely asked for recounts without alleging stunning levels of fraud? Not a coup. Easy peasy.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Which bits did the Reuters folks get wrong?

So you are doubling down on those cherries?

You are trying too hard. They didn't get bits wrong, they simply added no commentary to the factual description.

If you look at the whole Twitter feed of the reporter I linked to, you will see he posted joke after joke about what a fantasy it was of Trump's.

 

[dirtywick]

both sides are the same is absolutely ridiculous at this point.

if Trump had conceded and offered a respectful concession speech, and begun the transition, and not actively accusing his opponents and some of his allies of election fraud but still did recounts and somewhat reasonable court challenges of course people would view him differently.

in reality he's done none of those things. it's absurd to say he's acting basically the same as clinton and anyone who thinks differently is just biased.

 

[cosmicaug]

First, I didn't notice you were being dramatic until these last few posts.

Second, it's not the word "coup" that is the issue. So unless someone else is making the bolded argument, it certainly isn't mine.

So I'll wait to see if you are addressing someone else here.

In the meantime, the issue is, said refusal to leave office is Trump's con. The news media fell for it yet again starting months ago with asking Trump if he would concede if he lost. Why did they even ask given it wasn't credible. It still isn't.

Maybe what we have here is a failure to communicate.

Perhaps We don't have the level of agreement I assumed we had.

What is you understanding of a con here?

What are the implications of your understanding of any of this as being a con.

I certainly don't think any of this is in good faith. Nothing has ever not been a con with Donnie. I'd say up until now (including everything leading up to his first term) it has been a mostly successful con (I mean, he had to settle for the Trump University part of the con but he did become president of the USA —in terms of success that's not a small thing). So yeah, I think it has all been a con but maybe that means something different to me than it does to you?

What does "The news media fell for it yet again starting months ago with asking Trump if he would concede if he lost. Why did they even ask given it wasn't credible." even mean? None of this was a thing from a few months ago. He said the same since at least 2016, and he had been making non-stop statements by this point telegraphing pretty much exactly what he has tried to do, that's why they asked. From their perspective, they would have been failing as journalists had they not asked. He clearly wasn't joking in the non-responses he gave where he implied that he probably wouldn't concede. I guess that was a con. What does accepting that that was a con mean to me in practical terms? Do you think if only people had realized that this was a con he would have conceded? Do you think this shameless sociopath would say to himself "Oh my, people have finally figured out that I am a lying con man! I guess I better give up on this act!"?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Certification for the state of Georgia should be happening in a couple of hours. Hopefully, that'll be the first domino to take down this clown show.

USA Today: Georgia election official certifies Biden victory

Can you imagine a couple of GOP legislator sycophants from MI wasting their political careers by overturning the voters' choice in their state? It's a guaranteed fail move because apparently it isn't allowed under state law.

Detroit News:

"For them to do anything other than to respect the popular vote is a violation of their oath of office," Mitchell said. "They took an oath like I took an oath to the Constitution, but in their case to the state Constitution, and the laws of the state don’t say you get to appoint anyone you want." ....

But experts have said the deadlock would throw the certification issue into court.

IOW failure to certify the election would mean the case goes to court. It doesn't go to the legislature. There was a link about that earlier discussing just the Wayne County electors failing to certify the results that said the courts would go by the voters' choice.

So you would need the Republicans trying to help Trump when not only would it be a wasted effort because Trump needs more than MI, but it would also be unlikely to succeed based solely on MI State voting laws.

These two MI GOP legislators are getting a free trip and a tour of the WH. Hope they don't get COVID. I hear it's still going around in the WH.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Indeed.

I think the coup deniers are really underestimating how much of our system is reliant on people doing what they are supposed to do. The end of our system is as simple as people just choosing not to follow these expectations.

Just what exactly do you think is being denied?

As for the ease of the end of the system, do you think believing in a con manifested by a well known conman might be contributing to the problem? Whereas laughing at the conman, refusing to take him seriously is a way of resisting said democracy's downfall?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I guess the real question is "Does he have McConnell?"

That's really who we're all waiting for, isn't it? He's the person that can play the Senate games that change the outcome while still appearing legal.

I don't think he does, but I'd feel a lot better if ol' Mitch would just make a solid public statement that Trump is running out of viable challenges, and that he has no objection to logging the electoral votes.

I think he likes making everyone nervous and may have some incentive to keep the "stolen" narrative active. I just hope it's not to justify another obstructionist move.

Someone help me analyze this possibility--no matter how unthinkable it would be, isnt it his job to tally the electoral votes officially? What if he simply refuses to do so, so that on whatever key date there is not an EV majority for Biden? Not whether that would ruin him politically--just simply can it literally be done if he wants to be that bull-headed?

Judging from history, he only has McConnell until those two Senate seats in GA are decided.

 

[dudalb]

In the absence of an actual Monarch, plenty Americans have the instinct to assume that if POTUS asks, it must be legal, and refusing would be illegal.

I am a little cynical about the American People a lot of time, but this is more then a little over the top. Cite some proof.
And your contempt for the "common man" is reaching the level of a Parry Member's contempt for the Proles in "1984".

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

So id Trump asks officials in various states to just ignore the popular on his say so that there's been massive fraud and they say no some people here seem to think that means everything's fine and that's not a problem because it didn't work?

I believe we are defining "a problem" differently.

It makes for a nice straw man to define "not a problem" the way your post does.

 

[johnny karate]

Just what exactly do you think is being denied?

As for the ease of the end of the system, do you think believing in a con manifested by a well known conman might be contributing to the problem? Whereas laughing at the conman, refusing to take him seriously is a way of resisting said democracy's downfall?

What’s the hard line that Trump and his Republican enablers will not cross and how do you know they won’t cross it?

Because I would have thought sitting idly by while tens of thousands of Americans needlessly die would have been one such line.

I would have thought undermining the democratic process and sowing widespread distrust in our elections with absolutely bonkers conspiracy theories would have been one such line.

I would have thought actively obstructing the peaceful transition of the administration of a duly elected president would been one such line.

So tell me, where it this line? And how do you know it’s the line?

 

[abaddon]

You’ve not actually read those sites have you? I putting this forward as one of the links is a review of a book.

Course not. The first is a broken link.
Of the remaining four They are op-eds and thus of no value, unless one enjoys the bloviating that occur in such pieces.

 

[Shadowdweller]

And the coup-mongerers are really overestimating how fickle people are, and how much many people actually believe in and value integrity.

The "end of our system" requires a LOT of people to blatantly disregard everything they believe in and become literal traitors with no thought at all.

Upwards of 70 million people in this country just did that, guy.

 

[Thermal]

What’s the hard line that Trump and his Republican enablers will not cross and how do you know they won’t cross it?

Because I would have thought sitting idly by while tens of thousands of Americans needlessly die would have been one such line.

I would have thought undermining the democratic process and sowing widespread distrust in our elections with absolutely bonkers conspiracy theories would have been one such line.

I would have thought actively obstructing the peaceful transition of the administration of a duly elected president would been one such line.

So tell me, where it this line? And how do you know it’s the line?

That's a ridiculous question. There is no hard line for all of them. If you are discussing remotely honestly, why would you pretend there must be?

To answer the ridiculous question in a fit of masochism: anything that requires a tiny bit of actual risk will send a Trumpanzee hiding under his bed. None have the conviction to back an actual coup, the penalties for sedition and treason being what they are.

 

[angrysoba]

//Replying to article, not cosmicaug//

Again if Trump "Mr Beans" himself to a coup we're not less screwed then if he "Keyser Sozed" his way into a coup.

As with the "Oh well it's not like he succeeded" thing I don't know what the "Oh it's not like he's some criminal mastermind" gotcha is supposed to be.

Again I'm not getting what crow we're supposed to be eating because Trump's coup might not succeed.

The damage done to the trust in the US Democratic Process and the seeds planted for a future person to stage a more successful takeover of the US Government by just putting yes men in a few key positions is more than enough damage.

The whole "Hardy har lookit you being all dramatic he only got 96% of the way to a coup before getting bored and giving up" thing baffles me.

Imagine if the VP was someone in the Dick Cheney mould rather than an empty suit like Pence? Trump spent 4 years lying and cheating and yet more people voted for him in 2020 than 2016. Only the sheer ineptitude of Trump's cronies has prevented him from totally subverting the democratic process.

For that matter imagine if the election had been genuinely close? We can laugh at him getting a couple of thousand votes thrown out in a state where the margin is 10s of 1000s, but what if that few thousand was the margin?

You can also bet that there are plenty of people watching for the stress points in this election. Sure, Trump is a “clown” so we all “expect” him to do stupid stuff like this which is essentially how he came to be president in 2016 (the Huff post for example put coverage of his election campaign in the entertainment section and all the networks loved him because he was great for ratings), but they didn’t take it seriously and he won.

Even if he craps out here (and yes, that is far more likely), as I said you can expect that the Republicans Ramsay Bolton is going to have a smoother route than their Joffrey because they will have figured out a better way to subvert the democratic process on the heels of this attempt.

 

[johnny karate]

That's a ridiculous question. There is no hard line for all of them. If you are discussing remotely honestly, why would you pretend there must be?

To answer the ridiculous question in a fit of masochism: anything that requires a tiny bit of actual risk will send a Trumpanzee hiding under his bed. None have the conviction to back an actual coup, the penalties for sedition and treason being what they are.

I like how you start out by claiming it’s dishonest to expect you to know where the line is immediately followed up by you telling us where the line is.

We are living through one of the darkest periods of American history that is causing untold suffering for hundreds of thousands - if not millions - of people. The damage caused during the last four years hasn’t even fully manifested and will likely take a generation or more to undo.

People have earned the right to be concerned and express those concerns, even if some of those concerns seem far-fetched.

Edited by zooterkin: 

<SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.

 

[dudalb]

Those Michigan GOP officals Trump invited to the White House just stated that they see no reason to challenge the election results in Michigan.
Thank the GSM that Trump is so damn incompetent in his attempts to stage a coup.

 

[Beelzebuddy]

If we're down to spewing links, here's some relevant reading:

I Lived Through A Stupid Coup. America Is Having One Now

 

[Susheel]

I like how you start out by claiming it’s dishonest to expect you to know where the line is immediately followed up by you telling us where the line is.
...

Edited by zooterkin: 

<SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.

 

[TheGoldcountry]

I like how you start out by claiming it’s dishonest to expect you to know where the line is immediately followed up by you telling us where the line is.

We are living through one of the darkest periods of American history that is causing untold suffering for hundreds of thousands - if not millions - of people. The damage caused during the last four years hasn’t even fully manifested and will likely take a generation or more to undo.

People have earned the right to be concerned and express those concerns, even if some of those concerns seem far-fetched.

Edited by zooterkin: 

<SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.

.

Thank you.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Just what exactly do you think is being denied?

As for the ease of the end of the system, do you think believing in a con manifested by a well known conman might be contributing to the problem? Whereas laughing at the conman, refusing to take him seriously is a way of resisting said democracy's downfall?

Laughing by people with no power doesn't matter one bit.

Notice that a large majority of the Republican party, which wields significant power both at the national level and in key swing states of this election, are much more reticent to admit this plain truth that Biden won.

Recent news suggests that Trump is largely unsuccessful in swaying these local officials into going along with his plot. That's good news, but I would hope it is clear exactly how fragile our system is. A few Republican state officials in the right swing states could easily make this clear electoral victory for Biden a contested event.