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Trump's Coup d'état.

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johnny karate said:
No, they don’t mean the exact same thing. But they are very close in meaning. Thus, synonyms.

The question is why you wish to split this particular hair but readily accept the term “insurrection” without delving into similar semantic quibbles.
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They are close in meaning yes, in that they are both actions against a Government. But they are different enough actions to differentiate between them, so when there is a need, they should be.
 
PhantomWolf said:
It doesn't matter if Congress was unable to do something unless they actually lost the power to do it because the terrorists took that power themselves then it isn't a seizure.

Congress still had the ability to vote on the certificates, they never lost it, the Terrorists never gained it. Yes, they were denied the ability to exercise the power because the law says they have to be in a certain place to do so, but they never lost the power itself, any more than going to lunch means that they lose the power.
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Congress was occupied, legal proceedings halted. No matter how long it lasted, that was an attempted coup, the actions those of terrorists, and the man responsible a White supremacist who repeatedly betrays his oaths of office. There's no sugar coating that, and the Paradise of Infinite Lollipops for White Boys is over. Laughably, pathetically over.

Uncle Sam has had yet another very public trouser drop thanks to White boys and their sadly deluded allies. Henceforth, zero grounds to claim adherence to Western values, or any sort of "leadership", let alone a moral voice or intellectual credibility. Trump and his base have ****-canned the USA for generations to come and greatly advanced the forces of totalitarianism around the planet.

In light of events, waving a Trump flag this point forward is an act of treason, an intentional declarative blessing of a violent coup against democracy. From now on, no quarter, no respite, no benefit of the doubt, only a hard press up against the wall.

Time to finally rewrite the DoI so that it does not take those lazy short-cuts in defining the first principles of democracy which, btw, do not start with "small government". Maybe then prairie dogs and swamp rats will get some learnin'.
 
PhantomWolf said:
They are close in meaning yes, in that they are both actions against a Government. But they are different enough actions to differentiate between them, so when there is a need, they should be.
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The instigator of a failed insurrection is usually hanged in public, while the instigator of a failed coup is usually shot in prison and their body dumped on the side of a road from a moving car.

So, it's very important to get this right.
 
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dudalb said:
What next? Explain how the Bastille was not an insurrection against the French Government?
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Who is claiming that it wasn't? Well other than the "government" at the time was a Monarch, so it was really an act of insurrection against the French Monarchy. It was also an act of Rebellion and Revolution. It wasn't a Coup though.
 
PhantomWolf said:
They are close in meaning yes, in that they are both actions against a Government. But they are different enough actions to differentiate between them, so when there is a need, they should be.
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“Insurrection” is defined as “a violent uprising against an authority or government”.

I mean, can we really call this a violent uprising against the government? These dudes just kind of milled around for a while and then allowed themselves to be politely escorted out of the Capitol.
 
Myriad said:
The instigator of a failed insurrection is usually hanged in public, while the instigator of a failed coup is usually shot in prison and their body dumped on the side of a road from a moving car.

So, it's very important to get this right.
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Nom'd
 
Myriad said:
The instigator of a failed insurrection is usually hanged in public, while the instigator of a failed coup is usually shot in prison and their body dumped on the side of a road from a moving car.

So, it's very important to get this right.
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Hitler wasn't. He went to prison for I believe 18 months. Wrote Mein Kampf and then ran again.
 
PhantomWolf said:
Do you believe that you can only have power if you can exercise it? If so, then does the Government lose its power when the Session is suspended?
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No, but I believe that you can’t exercise power unless you possess it.

You seem to object to my question, so I’ll rephrase it: Could Congress exercise their power to certify the election while right wing terrorists occupied the Capitol?
 
johnny karate said:
“Insurrection” is defined as “a violent uprising against an authority or government”.

I mean, can we really call this a violent uprising against the government? These dudes just kind of milled around for a while and then allowed themselves to be politely escorted out of the Capitol.
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Considering that they smashed their way in and there was a death, I'd say that there was some violence in there.
 
PhantomWolf said:
Considering that they smashed their way in and there was a death, I'd say that there was some violence in there.
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But was it really an uprising? They basically just forced their way into a building and that was it. Remember, we need to be dead-on perfect in our definition of terms.
 
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johnny karate said:
No, but I believe that you can’t exercise power unless you possess it.

You seem to object to my question, so I’ll rephrase it: Could Congress exercise their power to certify the election while right wing terrorists occupied the Capitol?
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Again already answered.

And you seem to agree that when a Session is suspended that the Congress doesn't lose its powers. Why should the reason for the suspension matter in this?

However, you have yet to answer as to if the right-wing terrorists could exercise any governmental powers while occupying the Capitol?
 
johnny karate said:
But was it really an uprising? They basically just forced their way into a building and that was it. Remember, we need to be dead-on perfect in our definition of terms.
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Was it an act of resistance or rebellion against the Government? Then yes it was an uprising.
 
Myriad said:
The instigator of a failed insurrection is usually hanged in public, while the instigator of a failed coup is usually shot in prison and their body dumped on the side of a road from a moving car.

So, it's very important to get this right.
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Awesome post! :D

Really helps distill this "First Up Against The Wall Come The Revolution" discussion in a nutshell.
 
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I asked, I think in this thread, why it matters if you all it a coup, or an insurrection, or whatever. One poster often alludes to effective "messaging" - which includes deciding on a phrase and sticking with it, so that any attempt to characterize this event as a serious threat is off-message. Minimizing it is a strategy - in essence, "Yes, they took over our space temporarily but we came back and finished the day's business." Setting aside all of the emotions, this is what happened - there was a break of a few hours, and then the legislative branch of government was back in business.

I understand wanting to avoid the word "coup," but I don't have a lot invested either way. There are a couple of posters here adamant about not using that word and for lack of a better answer I'm deciding it's a "messaging" issue. Which may be valid; it is not clear to me yet.
 
Re: Coup semantics.

This was a mob. And, yes, it was an uprising. Trump's "plan" was to whip MAGtards into a frenzy, and pressure Republican legislators to use some kind of parliamentary super-tactic in order to circumvent the election. It didn't work, so the restless mob stormed the capitol. They're not taking over the levers of power. The guy in the horned helmet did not assume any kind of state authority even for a second. This was a Trump-inspired action, but not exactly Trump-led. He told the mob to disperse. He didn't say, "Hold the People's Building until I arrive. I'm going to make an announcement to the world."

Calling this a "coup" is sort of like how after the Las Vegas shooting people said, "I don't care what anyone says, this is terrorism." And their evidence is 1) It was really, really bad and 2) people felt terrorized. Well, no. Terrorism has a social/political component.

All of this is further complicated by the fact that Trump is pro-coup. The business of the ten living Secretaries of Defense recognizing Biden as President-Elect is more ominous. What's the story behind that letter? Hawley/Cruz trying to circumvent the certification of the vote is also more ominous (although, truth be told, Hawley/Cruz know/knew their actions would not change the outcome; they're rank political opportunists angling to take the presidency for themselves).
 
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