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Trump Impeachment: What crimes to include

theprestige said:
After three years of desperate searching for The One Thing, it'll be interesting to see what the Dems actually settle on for their big play.
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I think your characterization of "desperate searching" is completely off target. If you don't think that Trump is, and has been, a criminal president, then you are wearing your red blindfold too tightly.

In any reasonable, non-partisan, non-corrupt Congress, impeaching Trump would be a slam dunk. The evidence is right there in the Mueller Report for all to see, but Pelosi understands two importing things...

1. The issues are very complex... too complex for everyday Americans to understand. It's why they haven't been on board so far... only a very small percentage of Americans have read the Mueller Report.

2. The Senate would never convict because the corruption on the Republican side is so great, and Pelosi is well aware that failure to convict in the Senate would be trumpeted loudly by Trumpworld as "total exoneration"

It occurs to me that Nancy Pelosi has been very canny over the last few months. IMO, she is capable of wiping the floor with Trump in any debate. Trump is playing political checkers at novice level, against Pelosi who is playing chess at Grand Master level. She has resisted the increasing calls for impeachment from the Democrat caucus in part, because she understands the limitation of the American people to understand. What she has needed was something that people could readily understand, a criminal act that puts the security the whole country at risk, including those very same everyday Americans. Pelosi has been playing the long game.

I would not characterize what Pelosi has been doing as "desperate searching", I would characterize it as "biding her time" and "feeding more rope".
 
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xjx388 said:
This sounds like something that should be rather obvious if impeachment is indeed that close. I mean, if you don't even have a good idea which "high crimes and misdemeanors" you are going to include yet, maybe you should start there before you start talking about impeachment.
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Impeachment is a political issue. High crimes and misdemeanors is not defined. In theory dereliction of duty or they don't like the way he combs his hair could be reason enough to impeach someone. Remember the Republicans impeached Clinton for lying about consensual sex. Republican Senators have already said they will quash the articles of impeachment. And that backfired big time because it came off as petty and partisan.

So this is really about standing up for the Republic and our principles. And that message must be sent loudly and clearly to the voting public.

The GOP is going to try and spin this as a partisan witch hunt. The Democrats must make it clear it is anything but.
 
wasapi said:
Trump just said that this impeachment nonsense is just going to boost his election for another term.

Really? How does he figure?
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If that were a sincere question, it would be worth answering.

Ask again on November 4, 2020.
 
The problem with America is news islands. Almost everyone is in their echo chamber of choice without dissenting opinions, so everyone gets their opinion affirmed constantly, because no one is willing to tell someone on their own team that they're wrong.

Sean Hannity was in a really good mood on his radio show this afternoon.
 
Meadmaker said:
They don't. They really don't.

This is 1998 all over again but with the team jerseys switched.
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No it's not even close. Trump has committed very serious crimes. He has endangered our democracy. The only thing Clinton may have endangered was his marriage.
 
Meadmaker said:
They don't. They really don't.

This is 1998 all over again but with the team jerseys switched.
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Err no.

Bill Clinton was investigated and impeached for...

1. Lying about a blow-job

Donald Trump is being investigated for a raft of serious crimes and law breaches, including

1. Obstruction of justice - multiple counts
2. Tax fraud - multiple counts
3. Money laundering
4. Violations of the emoluments clause - multiple counts
5. Inauguration finance fraud - multiple counts
6. Insurance fraud - multiple counts
7. Russian interference in the 2016 election
8. Violations of the campaign finance laws
9. Real estate fraud - multiple counts
10. Abuses of the White House security clearance process
11. Misuse of charitable assets involving self-dealing
 
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Meadmaker said:
The problem with America is news islands. Almost everyone is in their echo chamber of choice without dissenting opinions, so everyone gets their opinion affirmed constantly, because no one is willing to tell someone on their own team that they're wrong.

Sean Hannity was in a really good mood on his radio show this afternoon.
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Meadmaker said:
They don't. They really don't.

This is 1998 all over again but with the team jerseys switched.
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Republicans thought they could bring down a very popular president when Ken Starr's witch hunt finally produced something they could use, only to find out that most people didn't care about Clinton's sex life, or at least didn't think lying about it prevented him from doing a good job as president. Democrats think they can bring down the most unpopular president we've ever had when yet another example of illegal, self-serving abuse of power appears out of the blue, and this time it's one that affects our national security. This is much more like 1974, only worse. I do believe that trumpers who have laughed off Trump's approval rating -- and why they are what they are -- are on a collision course with reality.
 
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dudalb said:
Agreed, but the huge problem I have with Impeahcment is the chances of getting a conviction are zero.
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I don't think they're doing it to get a conviction.

I think, or hope, they're doing it to focus on a small, egregious set of crimes so that the American people sees the same, repeated truths day in and day out, and come to associate Trump with "bad" instinctively. I think, or hope, it's an election move.
 
Meadmaker said:
They don't. They really don't.

This is 1998 all over again but with the team jerseys switched.
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Good you should be able to provide a good list of proven serious felonies that his co-conspirators are in prison for that Clinton was given a pass on. Bah it is just more of that pointless watergate crap that made a good president resign. When a president does it, it's legal after all.
 
smartcooky said:
Donald Trump is being investigated for a raft of serious crimes and law breaches, including

1. Obstruction of justice - multiple counts
2. Tax fraud - multiple counts
3. Money laundering
4. Violations of the emoluments clause - multiple counts
5. Inauguration finance fraud - multiple counts
6. Insurance fraud - multiple counts
7. Russian interference in the 2016 election
8. Violations of the campaign finance laws
9. Real estate fraud - multiple counts
10. Abuses of the White House security clearance process
11. Misuse of charitable assets involving self-dealing
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Could you go into a little more detail on these? There's been so many accusations of wrong-doing by Trump I've lost track of what he's done.
 
Ian Osborne said:
Could you go into a little more detail on these? There's been so many accusations of wrong-doing by Trump I've lost track of what he's done.
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I'll start (not complete by a long shot):

Donald Trump is being investigated for a raft of serious crimes and law breaches, including

1. Obstruction of justice - multiple counts
telling staffers to fire Mueller. telling them to destroy the notes about him telling them to fire Mueller
2. Tax fraud - multiple counts
taking out loans with himself to avoid taxes. Massively undervaluing his property to avoid taxes.
3. Money laundering
selling massively overpriced real estate to Russian Oligarchs
4. Violations of the emoluments clause - multiple counts
Trump Hotel Washington, Golf Courses, Mar-a-Lago
5. Inauguration finance fraud - multiple counts
foreigners buying tickets, money spend on Trump's defense etc.
6. Insurance fraud - multiple counts
faked evaluations
7. Russian interference in the 2016 election
Trump Tower Meeting, telling Flynn to go after HRC emails, coordination of release of Podesta Emails via Roger Stone
8. Violations of the campaign finance laws
...
9. Real estate fraud - multiple counts
...
10. Abuses of the White House security clearance process
superseding expert verdicts to deny security clearances, allowing false statements on applications to be ignored.
11. Misuse of charitable assets involving self-dealing
using charity money for personal use
 
smartcooky said:
Err no.

Bill Clinton was investigated and impeached for...

1. Lying about a blow-job
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Bill Clinton was lucky he was president in the 90's and not now, because I think the culture has shifted on whether what he did was impeachable or not. Sure, he lied about a blowjob, but that's not really it. He used his considerable power in an attempt to derail a credible accusation of sexual harassment. Hiding his relationship with Lewinsky was not just to avoid personal embarrassment for a one-time affair, but to hide his longtime habit of engaging in inappropriate relationships with his subordinates, which was extremely relevant to civil suit. This scandal has not aged well in the me too era. Clinton was a gross creep that used his power to shield himself from the consequences of his actions.

That all said, a personal scandal is almost certainly less egregious than the type of corruption that Trump is accused of. Withholding taxpayer money to put the squeeze on a foreign power so that they will investigate a potential political rival is beyond the pale, even in the scummy world of washington.
 
WilliamSeger said:
Republicans thought they could bring down a very popular president when Ken Starr's witch hunt finally produced something they could use, only to find out that most people didn't care about Clinton's sex life, or at least didn't think lying about it prevented him from doing a good job as president. Democrats think they can bring down the most unpopular president we've ever had when yet another example of illegal, self-serving abuse of power appears out of the blue, and this time it's one that affects our national security. This is much more like 1974, only worse. I do believe that trumpers who have laughed off Trump's approval rating -- and why they are what they are -- are on a collision course with reality.
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Well someone is on a collision course with reality. I guess it will take some time to figure out who.

And even if it turns out wrong, I'll stand before the Lord of Song, with nothing on my lips but Hallelujah.
 
Meadmaker said:
Well someone is on a collision course with reality. I guess it will take some time to figure out who.
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Speaking of reality... It's a fact that Trump's purported high crimes and misdemeanors are in an entirely different league than those of Clinton. You know that of course. Drawing parallels concerning the underlying facts would be starkly anti-reality. I hope and assume that's not what you're doing.

Maybe your inferences about the electoral outcome are right. Maybe not. It's premature to declare future reality, oozing confidence no less. It's concerning though, that's for sure.
 
I think we all owe Trump a big apology, he really is quite considerate.

Consider the Russia election scandal. So many moving parts, vagueness, plausible deniability, Russian cut-outs, long drawn out investigations, etc. Much too complicated for Joe Sixpack to really sink his teeth into and get agitated.

So Trump comes out with his own, new and improved, election scandal. Straight-forward and easily digestible corruption. A political scandal that even the dimmest American can easily get their mind around.

Trump truly is a man of the people.
 
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