Trump Impeachment: What crimes to include

[Safe-Keeper]

It's not unlike defending Giuliani... What's the big deal with traveling to Ukraine? There's nothing wrong with that. Is there a named fallacy for this sort of filtering out the essence?

Moving the goalposts?

 

[Dr. Keith]

Nation states engage in this kind of quid pro quo all the time, though. It's not actually unethical to predicate a friendly relationship, with diplomatic, economic, and military benefits, in part on mutual cooperation on issues of interest to one party or the other.

Nation states act in ways that benefit each nation state. When one of the representatives of the nation states is asking for personal favors, that is where it becomes a problem.

Trump asking Ukraine for assistance on issues important to the US: Fine.
Trump asking Ukraine for assistance on his personal problems: Not fine.

If the Biden issue, which has been shown not to actually exist, was important at all to the US it would have been dealt with by now and through the proper channels. Because it was not important to the US Trump asked for help as a personal favor to help him personally, not the to help the US. Just like if Trump had asked the Ukraine to help with legal issues relating to one of his company's developments.

 

[varwoche]

Moving the goalposts?

Sort of but not quite. The goalpost wasn't situated in the playing field from the get-go.

 

[Cainkane1]

He could at least be censored for appearing orange on TV. Other than that he's a darn good President.

 

[a_unique_person]

Nation states act in ways that benefit each nation state. When one of the representatives of the nation states is asking for personal favors, that is where it becomes a problem.



Trump asking Ukraine for assistance on issues important to the US: Fine.

Trump asking Ukraine for assistance on his personal problems: Not fine.

Sending his personal lawyer hints at that possibility.

 

[tyr_13]

Nation states act in ways that benefit each nation state. When one of the representatives of the nation states is asking for personal favors, that is where it becomes a problem.

Trump asking Ukraine for assistance on issues important to the US: Fine.
Trump asking Ukraine for assistance on his personal problems: Not fine.

If the Biden issue, which has been shown not to actually exist, was important at all to the US it would have been dealt with by now and through the proper channels. Because it was not important to the US Trump asked for help as a personal favor to help him personally, not the to help the US. Just like if Trump had asked the Ukraine to help with legal issues relating to one of his company's developments.

This.

We have proper channels established, but those would have caught this blatant abuse of power. So they were not used.

There is no reason to pretend there is a reasonable argument for Trump's actions being anything close to either normal or acceptable. There is no reason to pretend that it is reasonable to investigate Joe Biden on this.

Stop pretending Trump defenders are engaged in good faith, no matter how much some of them would like to be, they are not.

 

[acbytesla]

He could at least be censored for appearing orange on TV. Other than that he's a darn good President.

You and I have different definition of what constitutes a good President.
I don't consider spending all day watching Fox and Friends and tweeting "good".

I don't consider encouraging white supremacists like he did with the marches in Charlotte "good".
I don't consider trying to take health care away from 12 million people "good".

I don't consider destroying free trade with useless tariffs "good".

I don't consider consider weakening environmental protections "good".

I don't consider extorting allies so they will go after political rivals "good".

I don't consider putting children in cages "good".

 

[abaddon]

He's done and said horrible things since day one without his disciples caring, but you have a point.

Though yes, as another poster said, the country is in a sorry state if the reason why "I'm witholding my government's money unless you dig up something about my political opponent" is terrible has to be explained to the masses. That's like banana republic-level corruption, or something I expect out of some Sub-Saharan failed state.

The problem really is that some people cannot distinguish between legal and moral, or more importantly, immoral and illegal.

The entire idea seems to be that if it is technically not illegal, the morals matter not a whit. That is, when one thinks about it really, that horrible attitude has historically given rise to things humanity would be better off not repeating.

Alas we appear doomed to repeat history, and not a nice history.

 

[PhantomWolf]

The problem really is that some people cannot distinguish between legal and moral, or more importantly, immoral and illegal.

 

[Venom]

The democrats need to play this over and over, respond to Graham's every other tweet with this til the end of this year.

 

[PhantomWolf]

As things stand now....

1. making false or misleading statements to lawfully authorized investigative officers and employees of the United States in written answers for the office of Special Counsel's investigation into Russian efforts to interfere in the 2016 United States presidential elections;
   
2. interfering or endeavouring to interfere with the conduct of investigations by the office of Special Counsel's investigation into Russian efforts to interfere in the 2016 United States presidential elections;
   
3. making or causing to be made false or misleading public statements for the purpose of deceiving the people of the United States into believing that a thorough and complete investigation had exonerated him with respect to the office of Special Counsel's investigation into Russian efforts to interfere in the 2016 United States presidential elections;
   
4. withholding relevant and material evidence or information from lawfully authorized investigative officers and and Congressional Committees;
   
5. endeavouring to misuse the Department of State, an agency of the United States, for personal political gain;
   
6. withholding both funds allocated to Ukraine and meetings at the White House, for the unlawful purpose of gaining an investigation into his political rivals;
   
7. soliciting the aid of foreign Governments to interfere for the benefit of his personal re-election campaign in the United States 2020 Presidential Elections;

More might be coming re: Taxes and Emoluments

 

[WilliamSeger]

For those trumpers waiting for the impeachment backlash to give Trump some possibility of being re-elected, a status update from the latest Washington Post poll:

The findings indicate that public opinion has shifted quickly against the president and in favor of impeachment proceedings in recent weeks as information has been released about Trump’s efforts to pressure Ukrainian government officials to undertake an investigation into former vice president Joe Biden, a potential 2020 campaign rival, and Biden’s son Hunter.

Previous Post-Schar School or Post-ABC News polls taken at different points throughout this year found majorities of Americans opposing the start of an impeachment proceeding, with 37 percent to 41 percent saying they favored such a step. The recent revelations appear to have prompted many Americans to rethink their position

The poll finds that, by a margin of 58 percent to 38 percent, Americans say the House was correct to undertake the inquiry. Among all adults, 49 percent say the House should take the more significant step to impeach the president and call for his removal from office. Another 6 percent say they back the start of the inquiry but do not favor removing Trump from office, with the remainder undecided about the president’s ultimate fate. The results among registered voters are almost identical.

But don't worry too much. I'm sure the latest display of great and unmatched wisdom by your stable genius will have everyone forgetting about impeachment in a few days.

ETA: Another indicator that everything is just fine, no reason to panic:

More than 8 in 10 Democrats endorse the inquiry and nearly 8 in 10 favor a vote to recommend that Trump be removed from office. Among Republicans, roughly 7 in 10 do not support the inquiry but almost 3 in 10 do, and almost one-fifth of Republicans say they favor a vote recommending his removal. Among the critical voting bloc of independents, support for the impeachment inquiry hits 57 percent, with 49 percent saying the House should vote to remove Trump from office.

 

[Meadmaker]

Hmmmm…...curious.

The House Judiciary Committee seems to have decided on "none of the above". No crimes at all, just abuse of power.

Those crafty lawyers must be up to something. Otherwise, why would they overlook all of those crimes?